Cheap HP gains for turbo newcomers

[rickware]

This has got me thinking as I recently wrote on a post 'you can gain 40 hp relatively cheaply on a turbo' but on reflection I don't think this is true. So I thought I would pose the question for those thinking about this of the best way it can be done.

When writing the comment I was thinking cheap chip off ebay that has the boost protection removed plus a manual boost controller equals 40 hp for around 200 quid. Whilst this may be true if you drive the car hard for prolonged period you will more than likely burn out a valve (I did) as it is running to lean at higher boosts costing thousands to repair. So then you have to go down the remap route but to get this working probably you need new injectors, 3 bar fpr, and boost controller just to gain the 40 hp safely but at a cost of 1000 pound plus a remap cost every time you make a further change.

So finally I have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as cheap and if you are going to upgrade you need to bite the bullet and upgrade the turbo, injectors, 3 bar fpr, dpw, 3" exhaust, fit a maf, upgrade ecu, fit an ebc, bigger intercooler, widefire head gasket to gain 70 - 100 hp! And if your doing all that then tackle the bottom end at the same time...

 

[robwright]

It is commonly believed hat you can reach 300HP quite safely without heavy engine modification. I am running close to this with TIAL 38 mm DPW, MBC and 3 bar FPR. The DME & KLR chips have of course been changed to remap the engine. Primarily so that the engine runs deliberately rich at high boost and revs to stop you melting it!!! The injectors are stock but in all honesty are probably running close if not at 100% duty cycle with 15 psi of boost. I wouldn't want to crank up the controller any further than that with stock injectors especially 22 year old ones. All that weighed in at around £500, which was cheaper that a stock wastegate from Porsche. Mine was cracked so I had a choice wastegate from Porsche or 50-70 more HP for less money than the quite inefficient stock wastegate!!! No brainer I think [][][][][]

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: rickware

So finally I have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as cheap and if you are going to upgrade you need to bite the bullet and upgrade the turbo, injectors, 3 bar fpr, dpw, 3" exhaust, fit a maf, upgrade ecu, fit an ebc, bigger intercooler, widefire head gasket ...

Or just buy a superior model of 944 in the first place! []

(Sorry chaps. You were just asking for that!)


Oli.

 

[DivineE]

So you were using chips without a 3 bar fuel pressure regulator on your car when you burnt out a valve? All the chips I know require the use of a 3 bar fuel pressure regulator to keep the right mixture.

I suppose on cars now up to 25 years old it would be wise to replace the worn AFM, clean or replace the original injectors and pressurise the system to track down the many small boost leaks you will have before chipping a car as the chip assumes the car is in perfect working order.

In my opinion re-mapping the car to compensate for the problems listed above is not a solution anyway. The chips are usually designed with a lot more time and care than you will want to pay for or could achieve in a day on a dyno and with a safe margin allowed so there should be no need to remap the car, and no benefit unless you have further modifications.

I stand by the fact you can and have in fact known cars running 60+hp more than standard with over 100,000miles on the clock and nothing more than a chip/ 3 bar regulator combo and a shim in the wastegate to help suppport the ageing spring. The car I'm thinking of was driven extremely hard with no extra maintenance for several years and 10's of thousands of miles without incident. It had nothing else done to it and was running a £90 superchip or something (I forget but it wasn't by anyone well known or exactly anything special).

I hope I will soon be able to prove this again with the totally standard car I am buying.

 

[chrisg]

To throw my penny's worth in........


When I bought my 951 with 100k on it, I chipped it with the Promax/ LR Racing chips, 3bar FPR.

With nothing else done and running up to 21psi, it showed 307bhp at the flywheel at Weltmeister, Silverstone.

Interesting that I also had the Turbo refurbed - not an original 26/8 but a 26/6 !

Following a few thousand miles eventually the head gasket started giving way - replaced with cometic item.

Eventually several thousand miles later, it burn an exhaust valve on a track day - believed to have been caused by running lean at full boost ~ 1000 mile earlier with a dodgy fuel pump.

So my comments:

yes, you can get good BHP gains cheaply and quickly with 951's, BUT....

To do the job properly you need to:

1. Ensure the head gasket is up to the job
2. Have the appropriate mapping/ AFR setup
3. Min. of 3bar FPR and clean original injectors
4. High quality up to the job fuel pump, with both filters (internal and external to the tank) clean and in good order
5. If budget permits, 55lb or there abouts injectors

From my expensive experience, if you don't get the basics right even a very good engine will fail..... eventually

 

[barks944]

Get a wideband gauge then you can see if its lean.

 

[MarkK]

Go to Promax,Straight to Promax,only to Promax[]

 

[sawood12]

Depends upon your definition of cheap. Promax level 2 kit is the best bang for your buck as an entry level off the shelf kit that works. Got to have a good base to start with though.

 

[TTM]

One thing I regret is not having installed a wideband when I was running the 2.5 engine. It would have helped me put in perspective the figures it's telling me now with the 3.0.
Over any "performance mod" I would think it's the very first thing one may want to fit on a standard car as it should give a pretty good picture of how an engine is running and one would be able to see where they're going when they begin to replace chips and all.
That and a device that allows monitoring knock. I reckon too many assume their engine will be fine if the AFR is right, and I disagree!

 

[barks944]

Worth fitting a wideband on any of the 944's not just the turbo.

 

[Suffolk944]

Its all relative of course and as Scott says it depends on any given individuals depth of pockets as to what they consider cheap. Something like the Promax L2 (or equivalent) can certainly be considered "good value" in that the improvement to the cars against outlay is very noticeable indeed. Much cheaper than something like that, while pursuing similar BHP gains means skimping on things (such as the 3 bar FPR) which will almost inevitably lead to mishaps. As with most things in life if it seems too cheap/good to be true then it probably is and further research and/or outlay is required.

 

[944Turbo]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Go to Promax,Straight to Promax,only to Promax[]

Fanboy! []

 

[AndrewS]

Hi All,

When I bought my 951 with 100k on it, I chipped it with the Promax/ LR Racing chips, 3bar FPR.

Just to clarify that the ProMAX chip sets used in the performance kits sold my ProMAX Motorsport are not the same as the LR (Lindsey Racing) chipsets. The ProMAX versions are different and optimised for UK & ROW cars (and have different fuel maps for varying boost levels and injector sizing); they are not based on the LR chips either.

ProMAX Motorsport still use the Dual Port Wastegate from LR, as after 9 years we have never experienced a single issue with that product (to my knowledge). Because it uses all the same fitting points and brackets as the original, there have never been problems and it simply works as it should. We have worked with Lindsey Racing for over 10 years now (it's really that long ago that we introduced the original Boost Enhancer to the UK!).

I support the view that whilst a 951 is easily modified, knock and boost need to be properly controlled. The chips will alter the ignition advance and fuel delivery - but require the 3.0 bar FPR to reach the fuel delivery requirements (needed for up to 18psi = 1.2 bar) when using standard injectors. The chipset is also designed to suit the boost delivery of the K26/6 and K26/8 turbochargers (i.e. peak boost falling from 5000 rpm to the red line). The bypass valve ensures that the boost plumbing is not let down by the original item.

For anybody that is modifying a 944 Turbo; it is very important that the engine is in good shape (compression, bore wear, fuel delivery, injectors, turbocharger and AFR). I remember somebody (5 years ago) saying all you needed to do to increase power was to block the wastegate line with a suitably sized bolt - needless to say that chap was searching for a replacement engine shortly after that ;-)

Regards,
Andrew

INFORMATION PROVIDED FOR CLARIFICATION PURPOSES ONLY

 

[AndrewS]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

Go to Promax,Straight to Promax,only to Promax[]

Hello Mark,

Will you be joining us at the July track evening (Silverstone Historic GP circuit)? I would very like to see your new 944T track/race car! []

I gather the 2006 400+ modded red car (944T) is stll performing well? Hope to catch up with you soon.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[homesea]

Andrew

What type of fuel are the ProMax chips mapped for? Reason I ask is my car seems to go better with normal un-leaded then with the Tesco Super.(I have your Chips installed I guess!!)

Tom.

 

[barks944]

Is there a reason different octane fuels could cause performance differences to a 944? It doesn't optimise its own ignition based on knock sensor feedback. Do different blends of fuel release different ammounts of energy when burnt?

 

[333pg333]

ORIGINAL: chrisg

To throw my penny's worth in........


When I bought my 951 with 100k on it, I chipped it with the Promax/ LR Racing chips, 3bar FPR.

With nothing else done and running up to 21psi, it showed 307bhp at the flywheel at Weltmeister, Silverstone.

Interesting that I also had the Turbo refurbed - not an original 26/8 but a 26/6 !

Following a few thousand miles eventually the head gasket started giving way - replaced with cometic item.

Eventually several thousand miles later, it burn an exhaust valve on a track day - believed to have been caused by running lean at full boost ~ 1000 mile earlier with a dodgy fuel pump.

So my comments:

yes, you can get good BHP gains cheaply and quickly with 951's, BUT....

To do the job properly you need to:

1. Ensure the head gasket is up to the job
2. Have the appropriate mapping/ AFR setup
3. Min. of 3bar FPR and clean original injectors
4. High quality up to the job fuel pump, with both filters (internal and external to the tank) clean and in good order
5. If budget permits, 55lb or there abouts injectors

From my expensive experience, if you don't get the basics right even a very good engine will fail..... eventually

Well it would have been interesting to see what hp you got with a stock 250hp motor and just turned the boost up to 21psi? I would have liked to see what those mods produced at stock boost levels too. Guess the same.

 

[DivineE]

ORIGINAL: homesea

Andrew

What type of fuel are the ProMax chips mapped for? Reason I ask is my car seems to go better with normal un-leaded then with the Tesco Super.(I have your Chips installed I guess!!)

Tom.

Funny topic this. I can tell you that a dyno near me had a bit of fun once running the same car on all the local fuels to see which produced the highest hp figure over a few runs. Sainsbury's 97 octane came out top, BP's (cant remember what it was called before Ultimate) came out below regular 95 octane unleded. Tesco 99 ron wasn't available at the time.

I heard later that the cheaper fuels use cheap additives to boost the octane rating but that could well be marketing hype from BP.

 

[George Elliott]

Scotts comment - "definition of cheap" is key in this question. Its definitely not spend the least and take a chance.

I got a Promax kit for a 100k mile tidy '89 944T in 2004 or 05.

The kit included a DPW, Manual BC, 3 Bar FPR, Diverter Valve, 2 Eproms, and I took their advice to fit a Boost guage.
I added a K&N filter to that. 50K miles and one head gasket later the car runs like new. I run at 1.2bar and use premium fuel 80% of the time. Always warm up for 10 minutes and cool for last 2 miles. Oil & filter at 8,000 intervals. Belts and waterpump at 40k intervals, DME relays at 20k intervals

Considering the car delivers 280 to 300bhp reliably, can hold its own with everything I have met, will return 28mpg when running around, has had no need for additional bhp spend in 5 years - I think the Promax kit has provided me with excellent value - was it cheap? looking back it certainly was'nt expensive. Not when I think of all the wrecked engines we read of. I still have a matching numbers car - one problem - I cant bring myself to part with it.

944T
911

 

[MarkK]

Yup i am a Promax fan[]
They can tune these cars good,they tuned my racecar and i managed with luck,fortune and Gods smiling at me to come in 2nd in the future classics today at Oulton Park,the guy that pipped me (i was in the lead until a stupid mistake) asked me "how much power does that thing have.....350hp????"I replied 280ish maybe a bit more..so thats why i am happy with their stuff[]170k miles and 40 hard and hot mins of "enthusiastic" driving,these old turbos tuned properly are brill!
Andrew,the red L4 car is great i was using it a couple of weeks ago and it is still insane[],but i must say the blue car is starting to win me over and may be sneaking into favourite spot.Would love to come on the evening trackday but need to see if i can before i can say yay or nay.

ETA (just trying to justify my earlier statement[]!)