Oh Dear sills

[supersport]

My car just failed the MOT needing a bit of welding on the sills. That garage that did the work has now had a good look and says that the sill are pretty much rotten on both sides and they need replacing.

Doh!

Is this a killer, I have seen figures of £1K per side bandied around and that is money that's not worth spending on this particular car?

 

[zcacogp]

1. Do a search on here.
2. Get a variety of quotes from people local to, and far from you.
3. Decide how much the car is worth to you. (A 944 with newly-done cills and is known to be in good nick could be worth quite a bit to you, if only a little in pure £ terms.)


Oli.

 

[supersport]

I have to say that I find the search facility a lot hit and miss and quite hard to get what you want, but I did have a quick look.

Only just heard the news tonight so not talked to anyone else yet.

It is always hard to put a value on a car. We only bought the 944 for a bit of fun everyday of the week, but deliberately didn't spend a lot of money. I am sure it is a familiar story about buying cheap and paying the price. I have to say I love it but given its £ value am reluctant to spend loads a money.

If it was my 911 there would be no question, I will be burried in it, but I am not sure about the 944. I would almost rather junk it and buy a really good one. But like many people money is tight at the moment, hence getting a cheap one to start with. I had intended to use this car as an experiment with a spanner and putting on track, with the view that if I totalled it I hadn't lost a lot.

At this point I am really after some hints to costs so that I have an idea where I stand when I make a couple of calls.

 

[tref]

Hmmm... replacing the cills... How far gone are they? Now in theory, the "right" thing to do is to replace the cills... how-ever...

Most of the 944s I have seen with cill corrosion has been at the back of the cill only. Usually a patch about 2" square, though sometimes a corresponding patch on the inner cill too. The car is galvanised... so there is a choice - remove the entire cill - that is about 3' long, and in the process remove the galvanising along both edges before it is welded back in place, or, what would normally be termed "bodge it" with a local patch... I would say that is 4" square on the outer cill, 2" square on the inner cill. That is 16 linear inches of removed galvanising rather that call it 72"...

I had such a repair carried out, with the correct stone protection and paintwork carried out (i.e., you wouldn't know it had been repaired) for £250 a few years ago. So, in certain circumstances it is possible to have a better job cheaper, in my opinion...

I'll await the mass of protests that I am a bodge artist!

 

[Alpine]

Mark

I know a good bodywork man in Elvington, probably near you in York. He sub contracts welding work out. I'm not sure he could do new cills but he might be able to patch up. Let me know if you want details.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I've seen repairs vary a lot. Assuming it's actually bad enough to need doing, not just waxoyling like mad and repeating the treatment regularly.

To restore the car, inner and outer sills, repair to the bottom of the rear wing, sundry little bits such as the numberplate light area, and proper paintwork, could well reach several thousand. No less than on a 911, of course, if anything quite a bit less than most mid-'80s 911s will cost to restore.

To do a bodge job for the MOT, and expect to keep bodging year after year, but it's a "run it 'till it dies" car, a few hundred at worst.

If it's a keeper, then I'd do the best job possible. If it's a shed you're going to dump on e-bay then go cheap. Personally, I don't think there's a middle ground, you'll be spending more but not getting the peace of mind that there's no issues with the bodywork for the next 20 years. Of course if it's really only the sills, and the rest of the bodywork is very good, it's going to be around £1K per side to do a perfect job. The stone-chip guard gives a good line to paint to.

 

[Lowtimer]

Evening, all.

Apologies for butting in without an introductory first post but this is a subject which is about to be dear to my heart too. My Turbo (pic attached if I have done it right) has recently had a thorough mechanical go-through and general survey by Barry Hart and his splendid fellows at Hartech and they spotted a similar bit of inside-out sill corrosion which will need attention soon before it gets any worse.

Barry said to me recently that from his engineering perspective it would probably be a mistake to completely re-sill a car with only localised sill rot, as it is impossible to reproduce the original welding scheme, and the car would retain greater structural integrity with the (sound) majority of the original sills left in place. This implies letting in repair sections cut from replacement sills to replace the rotten bits while leaving as much as possible undisturbed.

The problem I am having is that via this and other marque specialist sites, Pistonheads and googling generally, it seems easy to find recommendations for top-class paint men, but the real skill in this job is the sheet metal work - the welding and panel crafting. It seems very much harder to find recommendations for people who excel at that.
Mark Walker in Elvington is an example of someone who universally attracts praise as a painter but I believe doesn't do his own welding (and I wonder if this is whom Alpine refers to above). A lot of painters and bodyshops really seem to be looking for straightforward bolt-on panel work on crash repairs on newish cars, or things where the painting is the essence of the work, like refinishing stone-chipped noses, and supermarket car park dents and scratches.

It's clear from this forum that quite a few people have had sill work done, whether full sill replacements or high quality repairs with new metal let in, and am more than willing to travel to get the work done well, but am really struggling for recommendations. It seems as if over the next few years the majority of surviving 944s will need it doing, if the yhave not had it done already.

I have been wondering if some of the restoration specialists for things like MGBs and TRs may be the place to look for people who are really into doing this. There are a few round North Yorkshire (where I keep my car) and also in Cambridgeshire (where I also spend a lot of time).

Any comments and perspectives from those with practical experience would be highly welcome! In line with Paul M's comments above, I want this done properly and expect to pay a proper price - I intend to run this car for a decade and to use it a lot. But I do need it to be done well.

 

[Northern924]

If thats all that is wrong with the car and the rest is tidy and clean then I would say get some qoutes ands save the car, I had a quote from a garage to fabricate and weld new sills on both sides for £250 admittedly that was without paint but I was intending to do the shultz/paint work myself

 

[Alpine]

ORIGINAL: Lowtimer

Mark Walker in Elvington is an example of someone who universally attracts praise as a painter but I believe doesn't do his own welding (and I wonder if this is whom Alpine refers to above).

correct!

 

[homesea]

Seen these on the bay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Porsche-944-Sill-Repair-Section1-2mm-Guage-/220617959647?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item335ddae8df

No idea what the fit will be like.

 

[Frenchy]

The stonechip material is made by Wurth, i have had sections put into the rear outer sill on my turbo s along with some work on the bottom of the front wings, but looks a treat and has ben done for some time now.
My 220 sills are "as new" as are the front wing bottoms...............luverly !
Get them filled with anti corrosion wax/fluid when done and check them out on a regular basis, running the car helps as the vents into the sills in the door pillar are there to pass air through the doors and sill setions to dry them out.

 

[morris944s2john]

I am going to fit complete new sills to my 944 but for the moment localised repairs (properly protected) will last till I'm ready to make a new sill.

 

[Lowtimer]

So, Frenchy, the big question: who did the work for you?

 

[Frenchy]

A friend in the trade, you can PM Me

 

[morris944s2john]

a little repair I did a few years ago (passed two MOT's after these repairs- the inspector didn't even spot the sills had been repaired [] )

Grind off the stone chip and the damage is much worse that it first appeared.

Oh dear, more rust inside!

Where it is on the car

Before making repair sections, make templates out of cardboard

transfer shape onto 0.9mm mild steel CR4 grade

patch cut out with aviation snips- accuracy it vital!

folds put in with a hammer and vice (no folding machine at home)

Inner sill repair section tacked in

all inner repair sections in place

Inside of sill galve primed to simulate original galvanised protection

Outer sill patches being welded on

Outer sill repairs in place and welds ground smooth

Zinc primed, seam sealed and stonechip coated and the repair is almost invisible

Primed in cellulose and painted in Guards Red cellulose top coat (done at home so no 2-pack)

The colour match was very good with the original paint and the join between repair and original was done along the libe where the stone chip coating finishes.

Sorry for all the pics, but this gives you an idea that decent localised repairs are possible to a 944 sill and possibly more economic (I still have loads of paint left so the repair only cost me about £20- £30 in materials) []

 

[Lowtimer]

Tidy work!

 

[morris944s2john]

Thank you! I've been on a vehicle restoration course and have been an "advanced" student at Mid kent college resto course. They teach you all the skills needed. The job is tidy if the repairs are all butt welded in and ground smooth and protected with zinc paint inside and out.

 

[JM1962]

Mark

Have a look inside your B pillar vents with a torch, if they look really bad the car may not be worth repairing, if its only outer sills then it might not cost the earth to patch them up. If you can get underneath and have a look at the rear suspension mounts just behind the jacking points.

 

[Northern924]

My car has full sill repairs before I bought it but sadly it isn't the best job I've seen, hand fabricated but without much care taken as the car now sports sill covers, all be it that they are orioginal Porsche ones but are the box types.
I'm hoping to remove them and have them repaired to look more factory finish so thanks for that link to the ebay auction for replacements.

Sorry to hijack a thread slightly but could anyone post a shot of the underside of the car to show what it should look like between the outer sill and the floor pan, not had a chance to look at another '44 since I bought the car

 

[peanut]

ORIGINAL: tref

Hmmm... replacing the cills... How far gone are they? Now in theory, the "right" thing to do is to replace the cills... how-ever...

Most of the 944s I have seen with cill corrosion has been at the back of the cill only. Usually a patch about 2" square, though sometimes a corresponding patch on the inner cill too. The car is galvanised... so there is a choice - remove the entire cill - that is about 3' long, and in the process remove the galvanising along both edges before it is welded back in place, or, what would normally be termed "bodge it" with a local patch... I would say that is 4" square on the outer cill, 2" square on the inner cill. That is 16 linear inches of removed galvanising rather that call it 72"...

I had such a repair carried out, with the correct stone protection and paintwork carried out (i.e., you wouldn't know it had been repaired) for £250 a few years ago. So, in certain circumstances it is possible to have a better job cheaper, in my opinion...

I'll await the mass of protests that I am a bodge artist!

I'd second that approach . its either a cheap but sound bodge that could last 2-3 years or scrap/part the car.
Easy enough to cut a small square in the outer cill back to sound metal, insert a small repair piece and tack /braize in place and then fill and paint. £100.00 should cover it.
of course if the rot is extensive and structural thats a different matter.


Nice job Morris........I especially like the Tescos cornflake packet template! I reckon you must have cut your teeth on MG's []