1970 'base' 911S = Information Required
- Thread starter basic
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Nick. ST! Why not ST in 'Excellence'? Having said that, there is a lot of, to my mind, pointless stuff in there. Too many pages on US racing. OK I know the author is American, and the book is for the US market, but loads of even more detailed technical information would have suited me better. So much information now though, that I don't know where to start. But, I have to start somewhere, so I'll go through the Google listings, from top to bottom, and collect, then collate, it all. One thing I'd like to find are comparative price lists. I am wondering if the price was lower, or higher, than the 911S. Had I been able to buy one, I would have been willing to pay more for a stripped out version, than for the standard car. But, from reading 'Excellence', the author states that most were purchased, with lots of options that were standard on the 911S! So, perhaps Porsche were kind enough to price it lower as the options, to standard 911S, must have added cost? I always thought that Porsche showed a lot of respect for their UK customers by bringing a RHD version. Unlike companies such as BMW, who only built the E30 M3 in LHD form, or AUDI, who only built the S1 in LHD. Thanks once again, Sincerely, Dave. EDIT: I just checked in Marc Bongers' "Porsche and RUF - Sportscars": It does not even get a mention, let alone a picture. I believe I shall sell the book now
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]As far as I know there was only 1 RHD ST, that went to Australia originally but is now in the UK. I have co-driven that car in a rally in Germany back in 2002. I have never seen a original price for an ST, but I would be surprised if any were supplied with any of the normal S options apart from an LSD and a roll hoop, although having said that one is documented as having a sunroof .
So. The information in 'Excellence' is inaccurate regarding the 911ST! This is disappointing, as it makes me wonder how much other data is questionable? I had always assumed that the book was a fairly definitive record? I took Marc Bongers' "Porsche and RUF - Sportscars" to the book dealer, in town, yesterday, to sell on for me. I don't want it if it does not cover every car! He recons, as it's a numbered and signed copy, it is worth quite bit. We shall see.
Bertroex
New member
It's an interesting observation you made there, about the base 911S. However, there is a world of difference between a customer road car, and a racing car made available to customers. More so in the early days as now, as the racing department was still family run (up to the point Porsche went from KG to AG and Porsche family members were asked to leave) and therefore very personal. If you were a known and cherished customer, they could provide whatever you wanted for whatever regulation/motorsport class you wanted to compete. If however you were someone who had the money to buy whatever they wanted to the annoyance of young Mr Piech's racing department, a price lists came out. The information you are after is not readily available in the "book departments" around the world: you are really after some copies and their regular updates on the racing department. Rare as hen's teeth, but a good start could be having a word with the UK traders who sell parts of that era as well as maintaining the original cars. There are many more unhealthy ways to spend time and money, but it'll be a bit of a journey! Take care, Bert
Bert. Thanks for the encouragement. Not more 'Hen's Teeth' documents. For some time now, I have been researching the Volkswagen Motorsport Mk2 Golf Gti Rally Cars, both LHD and RHD. I have managed to buy a few original VWMS parts, find others owned by various people around Europe, who have supplied me with details and photographs. I have even been loaned some to dismantle, photograph, measure and draw up. I also have been able to locate homologation documents, which is easy, and even a copy of the 16v Gruppe A Werkstatthandbusch. This contains a full list of competition part numbers and set-up instructions. But. I have yet to find a copy of the same Handbusch for the 8v Gruppe A. VW Museum do not have a copy. But surprisingly, nor do Volkswagen Motorsport in Hannover! They say that they don't bother to keep out of date data of any kind! If there is so little real information on the 911ST it may actually be less frustrating than trying to obtain documents that were printed by VWMS, in their hundreds, and, I would guess, also pirated in their thousands via the good old photocopier. Thanks once again, Sincerely, Dave.
Hi Basic. Thing is there was no such thing as a single definition of an S/T. At that period of the early 70s I believe from memory the factory homologated the 911S and the 911T (and maybe even the 911E but I can't remember at the moment) with the FIA. You should be able to obtain these papers. This will basically tell you what leeway you had in modifying the standard model into a competition car for FIA competition. Of course not all country specific championships adhered fully to FIA regulations. Then depending on what championship you wished to compete in, your relationship with the factory, what base model you wanted to start with, your budget etc - you could build a competition 911 or get the factory to do it for you. As each was effectively a custom built car that depended on who was building it and what parts they had available at the factory each car was somewhat unique in its spec. This practice had been going on with the 911 since the mid 60s and that's why it is so difficult to tie down the spec of cars such as T/R, S/T, etc. For example the T/R started as a T but were built with 911S, modified 911S or 906 engines depending on the championship it was racing in. Plus there were other succesful 911 competition cars out there at the time branded as plain S or plain T, etc. And finally any particular car might be have been built to compete in production based Group 3 or 4 or in prototype based Group 5 which all had different regulations. Also up until it was banned in 1972/1973 the 917 (and 904, 906, Carrera 6, etc, etc, etc before it) was the real focus for the Porsche factory in racing. It was only after the 917 was banned that the factory decided to base it's high profile motor sport activities around the 911 resulting in the RS/RSR which was produced in much greater volume and was available as a turnkey competition car deliverable from the factory. As such and also due to it's widespread success it is much better documented than the spec of previous 911 competition models. Up until the RS the factory support for competition 911s had been somewhat ad-hoc as you will discover when looking for documentation. Ian.
Ian, Thanks for that. You are quite correct, of course, regarding homologation documents, which should still be available from MSA at £59 per copy. But, this is still a back burner project, and what funds I can afford to 'waste on bl0ddy cars', as my wife puts it, are being put into buying VWMS parts. At the moment I am negotiating a complete VWMS K-Jet Fuel/Air Metering unit still in its box and never fitted to a car. The details of the interior dimensional changes for, 911 homologation, using the ST as the base car, must be quoted the homologation documents. There should also be photos of such special parts? But, as I have found during the VWMS research, some parts used, important ones at that, do not appear in homologation forms. The research will continue, and I shall, one day, report my findings on here. Sincerely, Dave.
If you look in the "Red Book 1965-1999" by Patrick Paternie in the 1970-1971 section there is listed 14 chassis numbers of 911S models. The writing states that " the above chassis numbers are examples of the racing versions of the 911S referred to internally as 911 S-T models". it goes on to say that "cars were ordered as a 911S with option code M470 deleted, which leftout most of the standard road going equipment" There is also listed the engine codes 911/20, 911/21, 911/22, and 911/70. These engines range from 230 hp to 270 hp and from 2247cc to 2492cc. PS my Mark Bonger book signed by him at the RUF works in 2008 is numbered 475 and the book is of road going cars. I hope this helps.
Lightweight_911
New member
Dave - one of the most informative sources of information on the 'ST' models can be found on the Early 911S Registry forum: [link]http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?52131-Ultimate-ST-thread[/link]
Andy. Thank you for that. I am now uber embarressed that, after I was informed the car was actually called a 911ST, and not 'base' nor 'basic', I did not do a new 'ST' search on here! That thread is something I had not expected, as I assumed that the car would have been relatively overlooked, or even ignored. I should have realised that this would not be the case, in a community of Porsche enthusiasts. I suppose I am more used to working with forums where the members have very little interest in the competition heritage of a Marque? On most of the other forums the concensus is that the top of the range cars are the ones with filled to the gunwhales with every bit of kit you can throw at it. Only a few share my belief that the ultimate version of any car is a factory built lightweight! There is a grand amount of data in that thread, of the type, and in the kind of detail, which suits my own outlook. My interest in the car dates back to the early 1970s, when I had a Porsche catalogue which listed such items as lightweight panels, and other competition parts, available for the 911 series. This catalogue has since disapeared, during various house moves, as have all other such documentation covering similar items from other manufacturers. My interest was only resurected when my daughter gave me 'Excellence Was Expected' as a Christmas present a few years ago. It has taken me since then to get to this point. As I have said above, this is only a back-burner project at the moment, but I must start a proper database system so as to be able to data in a logical and easily retrievable format. Dave.
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