3.2 Carrera Club Sport

[SimonExtreme]

Help!

When I first started looking for a Porsche I decided that a 3.2 Club Sport was the car for me. Having looked for one for a while I started to look further afield and am now about to buy a 964 RS. HOWEVER, I have just been offered a really good Club Sport. The "rawness" of the RS doesn't put me off but there seems little doubt that the CS is a good car as well.

What should I do? All views welcomed.

 

[oliver]

I've run a 'Club Sport' for many years and love it.

I bought it, and a 2.7RSL, several years ago as 'classic' 911s to savour and enjoy and pass onto my kids so they will know what a real 911 was like. I have nothing against the latest cars (I have a 996 for day to day use), but the earlier, driver focussed, air-cooled 911s are a bit special.

Both the 2.7RS and 911CS are very tactile and make superb road/track cars - much better on the road than the 964RS (although the 964RS is a far better 'track' tool).

E.mail steve.darnell@virgin.net for some fact sheets on the Club Sport

 

[Yoda]

Hello again Simon

I went through this process recently (is there an echo in the forum you ask yourself??) and looked at, amongst others, a very nice example that Mark Waring had for sale (which is now back on the market I understand).

Loved the look of the Club Sport but found the performance lacking compared to the 964RS, especially on track. Surprisingly, I didin't find the Club Sport much better in terms of road manners, both cars were at their best on better surfaces. I also felt that there were fewer technical enhancements over a standard 3.2 compared to the RS vs a standard 964.

Club Sports are good value for a limited number RHD 911 (£8-10k less than a 964RS) but I think the 964 RS has old car feel with modern day performance.

But then I may be a little biased ............ [][]

 

[SimonExtreme]

Thanks for your thoughts.

Yoda
It must be spooky for you to have an echo!! I love the idea of the 964 RS which I don't think is as "bad" a road car as some make out. However, it was the Club Sport that got me interested in Porsche as a marque and it has more of a classic car feel/look. I am concerned that the performance is a bit weak and the thing I like about the RHD RS is the fact it has power steering, something the CS doesn't have.

I have heard comment that the CS was a bit of a half hearted effort bt Porsche to produce the 1980's RS while the 964 really is the true RS succesor.

I guess I need to organise a back to back test drive but ATM, the RS is ahead by a short head!!

 

[oliver]

With any older Porsche you do need to ensure that it is prperly set up and the engine is producing its full potential. A CS should produce about 240-245 bhp (0-60 in 5.1 secs, 152 mph). However, again, with older Porsches the figures are only part of the story - far more important is the feel, involvement and fun of the car. This is why the, albeit slower, 2.7RSs are still so sought after.

The CS doen't need power steering and, some say, neither does the 964RS. However, both have heavier controls than the 2.7RS, which is lighter and responds to more delicate inputs.

The CS is not an RS. The original was unique. The subsequent cars are more 'hardcore'.

Just to confuse the issue, a couple of years ago EVO had a big test to try to find the best 911. I think it tested all the variants up to the GT3, GT2 and 996TT. In fact there is no such thing as the 'best'; what they were really seaking was the 911 that most reflected what a 911 should be. If I recall correctly, the 2.7RS, 911CS and 964RS occupied the first three places.

 

[Andy Tims]

Simon

I got my CS early this year after looking for either a 964RS or CS (obvious common thread here). I'm delighted with my car, but would have probably been just as happy with a 964 - just have a good look around & buy the best you can afford. 964's are obviously much more plentiful, & if you find a good CS for sale you'll have to be fairly quick to secure.

Best of luck.

BTW don't believe too much about 964RS being the better track car. They both require enough driver skill / effort so as to make the driver a larger part of the performance equation than the more modern cars. The CS is however, definitely better on rough surfaces.

 

[Guest]

If you want a track car get the 964RS. With the right tyres and very small modifications they are as quick as a GT3 on the track if not quicker. A CS simply cannot live with that unless you are talking stiffer suspension, bigger brakes and more horsepower. Believe me, my modified 3.2 is quicker than even a stripped, extra lightweight CS, and I cannot hang with a well driven 964RS or well driven GT3.

One comment I would make is that a CS is a better place to start learning to drive fast. It is more adjustable, things happen a little slower and it is very tactile. If you are already a hotshoe then the RS is the weapon you need.

Just my $0.02.

Richard

 

[Yoda]

Andy/Richard

Interesting feedback. I used to have a lightly modified 3.2 Carrera several years ago and found it an excellent all rounder. Fun on track and very useable. I always wanted a 3.2 CS (still do!!) but the performance gain over my 3.2 felt subtle rather than earth shattering. Not so with the 964 RS which feels quite a lot quicker in virtually all respects.

Agree driver makes ALL the difference but I think that applies to most cars. I am a novice and I can't imagine being quicker in a CS all other things being equal. A lot depends on set up - I tried a couple of RSs that had road tyres and road set up and they were pretty good. Track set up cars on Michelin Cups etc are not so good. Set up also affects how forgiving the car is - my RS is set up for me and it actually feels pretty good. Feedback is so good compared to other cars I have driven that I think you get plenty of warning if things are getting out of shape.

As for keeping up with a well driven GT3 - like you said, depends on driver ability!!

 

[Andy Tims]

I wasn't suggesting that a CS would generally be quicker than a 964RS round a track. Of course, all things being equal (same driver, similar tyres etc.) an RS ought to be a fair bit faster, but I do think the CS will be at least as much fun.

As far as speed is concerned I can state as a matter of record, that at Castle Combe last week the CS was lapping within 1 or 2 seconds of all but 1 of the GT3 / GT3 RS's & was quicker than a couple of them.

 

[Yoda]

Like you said, must be driver ability (you hot shoe you). [][]

 

[Guest]

Yes - it says everything about how hard people are pushing their GT3s (assuming we are talking std cars vs std cars).

I have passed GT2s and GT3s on track days and that says nothing more than that some folks are unwilling or unable to drive close to the limits of their cars.

RB

 

[bones]

Surely the point about track days is they are just that and not unmonitored races which some people mistakenly seem to think they are. As Richard points out a trackday is no sort of measure of performance differentials between models. Unless the same driver drives two or more different models in a similar manner and is timed on clear laps.

 

[oliver]

I agree with Bones.

Although many of us are guilty of timing cars on track days, it is misleading, irrelevant and, in some cases, strictly frowned upon.

As a general rule, the faster a car is on track, the more compromised it is as a road car.

 

[mark piper]

"Oliver" - do you own a Caterham too? - I'm sure I know you....

There's the heritage aspect of an RS too if that is important to you - it was produced to homologate the Cup cars after all, whereas the CS has no such heritage to speak of. Both cars retain the DNA of their brethren and IMHO the CS is much nearer to a standard 3.2 than an RS is to a 964 C2. If you bring price into the equation, then an RHD CS is what £20k or so, a RHD RS is about £30k.

Both are classics in their own right and blue chip investments - but I'd not want to track a mint version of either (and that's why I sold my RS!).

I agree with Richard about the relative merits of a CS and RS when driven hard - the RS doesn't telegraph how close it is to the limit - thre's virtually no roll or tyre slip and the brakes are so good that you can easily outbrake yourself - on the road this may mean you understeer of a roundabout, on the track you could end up reversing down Paddock Hill!

Just my 5pence worth!

 

[oliver]

Hello Mark, Just passing on my way to Blatchat.

Yes I do run a Superlight. IMO a Caterham is more fun on track than any 911. The compromise though is longer journeys in poor weather can be tedious.

But you're right, the Club Sport is not an 'RS', in the same way that the 968CS is not an 'RS'. And, whilst there will no doubt be a 997(GT3)RS, the Boxster Coupe will probably be available, eventually, as a Club Sport rather than an RS.

I'd put it this way:

CS = Road/Track Fun

RS = Serious Track Intentions

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: mark piper

There's the heritage aspect of an RS too if that is important to you - it was produced to homologate the Cup cars after all, whereas the CS has no such heritage to speak of.
Just my 5pence worth!

I generally agree with your post but was the 964RS really produced to homologate anything? The cup cars raced in Carrera Cup and Supercup. Nothing needs to be homologated for these one make championships. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

RB

 

[mark piper]

Thought it was you Mike errr I mean Oliver! ...and I agree that it is meaningless to try to compare the track behaviour of a Caterham against a 911 - and that's what really annoys me about the idiots on Blatchat who have a dig at the Porsches on track days - I reckon you have to have bigger cojones to push a 911 hard through Paddock than ANY Caterham.

Richard - I think you'll find that Porsche built the requisite 2500 to satisfy FIA requirements (but agreed, not for the Cup per se) but I guess someone will be along soon to confirm whether that is correct.

 

[ClubSport 911]

whereas the CS has no such heritage to speak of.

Hmm... not too sure of this.

It's all about who drives / drove the car IMHO to make this statement true or not. Indeed, many CS's were just driven on the road, but a lot were taken to the tracks. Mine included. How does Des Winks (2003 GT3 supercup) and Andy Rouse preparation and driving in the 1989 Supercup series sound ? It sounds like a little bit of heritage to me.

The CS is a fine car.
The RS is a fine car.

I think "different" more accurately describes the virtues of them both !

A chum of mine has an SC cabrio, that on a recent X country blat, managed to give a pretty good account of itself with a standard Carrera 3.2 - well driven the pair of them. Which is "best ?" - who knows, and frankly, who cares.

I rejected the purchase ([FONT=Times New Roman"]Surely your wife did - Ed) of an RS 964 CS as it was too extreme. Indeed, several people report that on the road, the CS is the better mannered car. However, on the track, then I'm sure it's different.

Nice dilema !

 

[SimonExtreme]

Thanks for all the replies. Its nice to see such balanced views on a car forum. And no "my one is better than your one" type arguemenst you get on some lesser forums!

Unfortunately, I don't think you have been much help at all and I am just as confused!! It is obvious that both are great cars and have their plusses and minuses. However, I am still leaning towards the RS and am going to drive one again tomorrow. I think a number of factors make me favour it. The first is that the letters "RS" are very emotive in a way that "CS" will never be. I also believe that the CS will always live in the shadow of the RS's, even if it doesn't deserve to. OK, it means that they will be a very good and cheaper alternative to the RS but I suspect that they will never reach the "cult" status that the RS will/has already achieved.

Now I know that i shouldn't really care what others think of the car and I am not buying the car as an investment but looking into the future I suspect that the RS will be seen as the more desirable and values will reflect that. Shame really, becasue the CS is a very good car.

Richard makes and interesting point about the handling and it is that, more than anything else, that gets me both excited and aprehensive at the same time. The legend of skill levels needed to tame a rear engined Porsche on the limits is well established. I ahve been lucky enough to own some very fast and powerful cars but they all have had very predicatable habits at the limit which can make you look like a driving god. The Porsche, I am sure, can really find the truth about ones driving skills. I thinkI need to find some safe, wide open spaces so as to play and learn.

 

[ClubSport 911]

OK, it means that they will be a very good and cheaper alternative

I would suggest that having seen the prices advertised for RS's in PP and knowing the prices that CS's change hands for (outside PP / 911 & PW) then you would be surprised.

Anyhow regarding future classics etc, then who knows.

All I can say, is that if rarity is anything to go by, then I do know that global production of the CS is 340. Of these, only 53 were ever produced in RHD. If memory serves, that is somewhat less than the RS, but of course, no guarantee of future value.

I have some road-test / back to back comparisons of you want them. Just e-mail me off forum, and I will forward.

Certainly, the RS is (more than) worthy enough to carry the moniker, but the CS is still a "brand" in it's own right - especially in the UK where all but one were produced in red & white colour schemes.