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91' CUP for Sale

Good evening comrades,

I'm seeking the great CUP/RS oracle's advice: A CUP car from 91 is presently 4 sale. I had a longer conversation with the gentleman selling it. The car was more or less rebuilt from scratch with lots of old parts being exchanged for the correct new ones. Great detail had been spent to restore the initial delivery status. Both doors, front and rear bonnet as well as the main body carry the same (matching) shell number. The engine and the gearbox had been completely overhauled. The engine matches with the VIN, gearbox does not. Documentation on the car is not complete, but some invoices including the original delivery invoice of 1991 to France seem to be available. All original stickers are gone because the car had been completely resprayed.

The attached pix shows the livery of the 92 racing season. I probabbly need to add that I am NOT looking for an advice on the toy car, so please stash your air guns away again - Thanks [8D]



Now, in light of such extensive work, do you think the car's market value would be comparable to regularly used CUPs, which still have all original parts and maybe even the original paint job? How would you rate such a car ?

Thank you very much for everybody's opinion in advance,

Klaus

PS: The car will be a new entry in 964RSdatabase.com

1E07426035684C25BFC49BB2591F05B1.jpg
 
A fully restored Cup car with the original engine, doors, bonnet and lid matching with the shell is a rare piece and will be in the six digits (maybe 130,000+ EUR). It is uncommon for a Cup car that doornos. etc. are matching, normally they all had their crashes and replacements. Worth to check if they were "renumbered". Comparison with other Cup cars on offer is difficult - normally offered cars, which were not restored, are the result of a long racing life and far away from original, let alone the original paint. IIRC German dealer Ande Votteler had a virgin 1992 Cup car, could still be on stock. He is a nice guy and seems to know his business. You may have seen the green 91 Cup car in Essen for 139,500 EUR (I think) with many non-original parts. Then there´s ZLS 40 90 07, also green and a long story. Sticker price 149,500 EUR, again, I think). In general - prices seem to go through the roof, a proper European RS (carpet or not) is not too far away from 100,000 EUR, good ones already broke the barrier. The market for Cup cars is way smaller than for RSs, but if you want the real thing, N-GT or Cup is the option. The rough ride makes them useless for roads or travelling - they are track cars. Good luck and keep us posted, please, Hacki
 
Hi Klaus I don't think we have enough information to really conclusively give an opinion on your prospective purchase. Are you buying it to use? Look at? Make a turn? If its for track work I'd want to see plenty of recent history in terms of maintenance and set up etc. If its for investment then I don't think the French cars are the best bet. From 1990 and 1991 you want a German car which did the Carrera Cup in Germany and/or the European Grand Prix meetings. Does it have a Wagenpass or French records? If not, proving its history will be very difficult. Just be careful. There are, in my opinion, few good Cups left. There are certainly a lot of dogs and plenty of people talking up their cars and suggesting they're something they're not. Bitsas which are Cups etc!! As for ride/use. It depends completely on set up. My RS is less comfortable on the road than my Cup (the RS is factory standard!!). Keep us up dated on your progress. Damen
 
Hi All, attached a brief summary of the available history of zMS4090xx Let me know if you think it changes your view. Keep you posted! Klaus
 
There is no denying it looks good, but without top provenance it should not be top dollar, which is not so bad, as at least you can use it without being too precious about it? Descriptions of cup cars with no chassis damage and potentially a fender bender?... You only have to look at any recorded footage to see how they were used/raced. It's all down to price with this one, I can't help thinking a slightly battle scarred, full wagenpass car would be worth more?
 
Hi Klaus I think the car was on the market a couple of years ago. It was white at the time and was being sold on mobile.de for circa €40k. There was some chat about it here (Des certainly mentioned it as a cheap car at the time). My recollection is that it had been used as intended and had the scars to tell the same. You haven't said what your plans are for the car. So my previous comments remain. Keep us posted. Damen
 
Hi Damen, Thx for your little reminder. I was pondering about your comment the other day "Are you buying it to use? Look at? Make a turn?". I did own a Basic RS and an NGT, hence I pretty much know what I am getting with these two, but I have no knowledge of the CUP. I initially thought it is more or less the same as a NGT but there are some differences, I realise. Checked the various forum discussions and the article "lightweight Carrera confusion" again for that. To my usage: While I have the "Ring" in my neighbourhood to where I took my NGT and the Basic RS a couple of times, I have to admit that I enjoyed the back roads trough the "Eifel" towards the Ring even more than the public driving on the "Ring" itself. In hindsight I preferred the NGT over the Basic RS because of the pureness of the driving experience. From my HPOV the welded-in cage makes quite a difference to the car handling/driving. In summary, I like to take the car for some weekend spins and maybe the occasional track day event. I am sure that it could be arranged to have the CUP road registered here in Germany, but I feel it could be quite a difference to drive the CUP on the road in comparison to an NGT. Greetings, Klaus PS: I will probably have a look at the car next week. I also have the Porsche data sheet of the car on hand as well as a good 50 pix of the rebuilt. The delivery colour was G1G1 / guards red.
 
For your intended use, I would expect you would need modify the suspension on a cup to actually stay on the road, let alone enjoy the experience. A cup gains it's advantage on the track, where it is something you have to put up with on the road. for the intended use, I think a C2 would be more fun than a standard cup!
 
I have recently driven a 64CS with new Cup front dampers and it was far more compliant than my RSL which is on original RS dampers. I think a Cup on 17s with new dampers would be OK on the road, old dampers and/or 18s would make it horrible :)
 
Fitting 993RS front struts is the way to go for RS/cup on the road....but then that is the point, you are getting away from what a cup car is all about!
 
Good call Clubsport, 993RS Front struts the only way, 91 Cup as you know is the Carrera 2 based Cup Car and not the later RS based Supercup, not that really matters mate .... Enjoy[:D]
 
ORIGINAL: clubsport Fitting 993RS front struts is the way to go for RS/cup on the road....but then that is the point, you are getting away from what a cup car is all about!
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Sorry, think you have miscontrued my point - imho I think that the Cup is OK on the road if suspension is fresh, I have driven a Cup on fresh suspension (resto currently for sale with our german friend) and a 64CS in the UK with fresh front Cup struts and both were more compliant than my 64RSL which it has to be said is pretty harsh on original dampers and 18s :) - dont care though as I only really drive to Oulton and back (15km) save for the odd jaunt to Donny and Spa. Like you, can't see the point of softening either car, might as well buy a 93......
 
Had another conversation with the dealer yesterday. Both doors are new, they're not the original ones. They were stamped so that their numbers match with the shell number.
 
ORIGINAL: 964RS_Fan Had another conversation with the dealer yesterday. Both doors are new, they're not the original ones. They were stamped so that their numbers match with the shell number.
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That doesn´t sound exactly like the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
 
this is the reality we are now entering if cups are worth 130k+ Euro, it is worth people restoring them and ask anyone involved in the world of old Ferraris, Bentleys even 2.7RS and they will tell you that this kind of stuff is very common - the worse thing is finding that the Shell no, doumentation and VIN no are not original - now that would be a real problem and is an issue within the 2.7 world.......what are you actually buying :)
 
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