911 GT3 RS

[random hero]

I was at a garage today getting a tyre fitted and as i was about to go an 07 reg orange gt3rs pulled up. Had huge black wheels to cover the discs which looked bigger than my wheels. Looked fully kitted out with roll cage/harnesses etc and sounded amazing !!! Ive never really liked water cooled 911's but now im totally converted !!!

 

[George Elliott]

RH
Did you notice the Fuel Pumps vibrating as he pulled up?
RS 997's seem to have a vibration fault about 3k rpm.
Perhaps they need balancer shafts......[>:]

George


PS. I share your weakness for the RS Kettles. And the colour you mention is class.

 

[rob.kellock]

you don't need a GT3RS to be converted to water cooled 911s []

 

[sawood12]

You should see them on track. At Bedford there were two of them. Absolutely trouncing the field as well - apart from Andrew Sweatenham in his std 944 Turbo on slicks.

 

[George Elliott]

Scott, are you may-be suggesting a 944T on slicks with a handy wheel-man is capable of following a 997rs?
Sounds good to me.....[]
George

PS, noticed your KW plans - makes me all envious[8|] but keep us posted anyway.


944T

 

[sawood12]

George, I thnk I am. The more track days I attend the more I think that the key is driver skill. 80% of driving fast is all about driver skill no matter what car you drive. Several much slower and less capable front wheel drive cars were overtaking me at Bedford. It all boils down to balls and skill.

My KW plans are not plans anymore. The car is in the capable hands of the Promax boys as we speak! Hopefully it will be ready for this weekend but as there is a slight delay in my lower control arm geometry correcting ball joint kit being fitted at Hartech as their 'Ball Joint Man' is on holiday until tomorrow, so my car is stuck on axel stands until the modified control arms are returned[&o] Anyway i'm very excited to say the least and even though i'm under no illustions it wont transform my on-track performance overnight, I will enjoy driving the car more by a factor of 200% i'm sure. The kit looked lovely in the box at Promax when I was dropping my car off. A very well engineered piece of kit. Seems a shame it's hidded away and unseen. Maybe I can get some transparent perspex wings from somewhere to show them off!

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

The more track days I attend the more I think that the key is driver skill. 80% of driving fast is all about driver skill no matter what car you drive.

Absolutely 100% correct.

It's all about the driver, the car is just the icing on top. My very first track day I was lapped by a diesel Passat and a bunch of MX5's all day long. Driving on track is totally different to the road and a knowledgeable driver will easily surpass anyone in a souped up supercar. It's great fun however fast you are and even when you get pretty good there is always someone better, so just enjoy it []

 

[333pg333]

Well it's true about driver skill and the respective size of the cohones, but I guarantee that you will do better times first day back at the track Scott. I'll pay you 10 pounds if you don't.[]
PS I too love the GT3's at the track. They sound awesome and I'd love to try one out there, but car's like Pauls and others (hopefully mine one of these years) should be in a position to challenge or even surpass these modern day road/race cars...well that's the plan anyway!!!

 

[Andy97]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

George, I thnk I am. The more track days I attend the more I think that the key is driver skill. 80% of driving fast is all about driver skill no matter what car you drive. Several much slower and less capable front wheel drive cars were overtaking me at Bedford. It all boils down to balls and skill.

My KW plans are not plans anymore. The car is in the capable hands of the Promax boys as we speak! Hopefully it will be ready for this weekend but as there is a slight delay in my lower control arm geometry correcting ball joint kit being fitted at Hartech as their 'Ball Joint Man' is on holiday until tomorrow, so my car is stuck on axel stands until the modified control arms are returned[&o] Anyway i'm very excited to say the least and even though i'm under no illustions it wont transform my on-track performance overnight, I will enjoy driving the car more by a factor of 200% i'm sure. The kit looked lovely in the box at Promax when I was dropping my car off. A very well engineered piece of kit. Seems a shame it's hidded away and unseen. Maybe I can get some transparent perspex wings from somewhere to show them off!

Any chance of you letting on how much the kit & installation costs. PM if this is preferable, as I'd like to comnsider it in the future. Thanks

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Several much slower and less capable front wheel drive cars were overtaking me at Bedford. It all boils down to balls and skill.

i'm under no illustions it wont transform my on-track performance overnight, I will enjoy driving the car more by a factor of 200% i'm sure.

On the first point IMHO the fwd cars work fantastically well on a damp or wet track. This was my experience at Bedford anyway but it could have been down to me learning the track and my car very slowly (which works for me best anyway, make very gradual smooth increments so as to keep relaxed) or tyres that needed a lot of breaking in or are just not very good in the wet.

On the second point I am thinking that a bullet cam or such like has got to be a good idea so you can review your lines etc. afterwards. Only downside is that camera footage always looks much slower then it feels in real time.

 

[Hilux]

Scott, are you may-be suggesting a 944T on slicks with a handy wheel-man is capable of following a 997rs?
Sounds good to me.....[]

There are always two sides to a coin.

951 - £7000 ish

GT3RS - £100,000

I would imagine theres a degree of hesitancy regarding driving at 10/10ths with some of them. My MD has a v v special GT2 and wishes he had his old 964 Turbo as he`s a good driver but too scared to prang it.

Note however that at Bedford that day there were some `balls out` drivers in serious track cars (also faster than the GT3`s and the GT2) that Andrew left in his wake.

Driver training is key.

 

[sawood12]

ORIGINAL: Andy97

ORIGINAL: sawood12

George, I thnk I am. The more track days I attend the more I think that the key is driver skill. 80% of driving fast is all about driver skill no matter what car you drive. Several much slower and less capable front wheel drive cars were overtaking me at Bedford. It all boils down to balls and skill.

My KW plans are not plans anymore. The car is in the capable hands of the Promax boys as we speak! Hopefully it will be ready for this weekend but as there is a slight delay in my lower control arm geometry correcting ball joint kit being fitted at Hartech as their 'Ball Joint Man' is on holiday until tomorrow, so my car is stuck on axel stands until the modified control arms are returned[&o] Anyway i'm very excited to say the least and even though i'm under no illustions it wont transform my on-track performance overnight, I will enjoy driving the car more by a factor of 200% i'm sure. The kit looked lovely in the box at Promax when I was dropping my car off. A very well engineered piece of kit. Seems a shame it's hidded away and unseen. Maybe I can get some transparent perspex wings from somewhere to show them off!

Any chance of you letting on how much the kit & installation costs. PM if this is preferable, as I'd like to comnsider it in the future. Thanks

I'm getting a few extras fitted while i'm at it like fuel pipes (£125 2nd hand from PH), M030 TB's (£230 for TB's though no extra labour due to re-indexing), Racers Edge adjustable camber plates (US$500) and geometry correcting ball joint kit (US$225) on the front control arms (installed by Hartech at the cost of about 3hrs labour), but the basic price of the KW-only element of the installation is £1400 for the kit and about 10 - 12Mh for labour also there is a risk that the axel mounts might be shot when the axel is dropped and they are around £100 a pair and there are two pairs, so you should factor in £200 of contingency. Although if I recall correctly Paul Hilux's were OK when his KW was fitted so there is a chance.

Though today Hartech called me telling me that one of my control arms was actually a 968 control arm which has a different ball joint setup. they offered to exchange it with an S2/tubo one but it had no bushes, so that's a two pairs of control arm bushes (one pair for each side) I hadn't factored into the equation. At least they are fairly cheap. Unfotunately due to the delay's of sending my control arms to Hartech means I wont be able to pick up my car till next week[&o] Oh well at least i'll know it has matching control arms with fresh bushes.

Neils suggestion about using a bullet cam is a good idea. I find that although I understand what a racing line is and how it looks when you are actually on the track rather than looking down onto the track from above it is difficult to pick out the racing line. I found this at Donington because after a few sessions out on track I had a pro driver sit in with me and the amount of correction to the lines I was taking surprised me and it was amazing how much the pace picked up whilst being easier on the car at the same time. It's harder than it looks!!

 

[pauljmcnulty]

There are always two sides to a coin.

951 - £7000 ish

GT3RS - £100,000

Got to disagree, Paul....[8|]

Having been driven round Donnington in Paul S's Turbo, two things did surprise me more than they should have:

Firstly, the guys that can afford a GT3 RS as a toy can afford to get a cab home. The 944 crew needed the cars to take home the spare wheels and a selection of B&Q tools for changing said wheels. That does make a difference in the way they treat the cars, the track and , most importantly, the other drivers. There has not been an event in my experience where a 944 driver gets awarded "**** of the day".

Secondly, and how can I say this without offending someone?, I really don't think that Paul's or Tony's driving were the main factor in keeping up with the more exotic machinery. My Lux probably throws out about 7 bhp on a cool day, and corners like a supertanker. That's fine by me, because it's a shiny red Porsche and it's mine...[]

Paul's slightly modified 944 is a scary ride as a passenger, but only for the first lap or two. The sheer power is amazing when you come straight out of a tired Lux. The driving skills were. to be fair, faultless. But.... above all the car never felt as if it was at it's limits. I was more nervous about distracting Paul by chatting as we flew around than the idea that the car might let go. It's the same as when Darren Anderson threw me off Bedford in his 944. We were too busy discussing service schedules to remember the bend, but still the chassis was relatively composed, backwards, especially when watching a GT3 come across a surprise on the track.....[:-]

I guess that, whatever you do over decades of developement, a transaxle layout makes more sense than a rear-engine when you actually want to explore the limits on a track. If you can do that for less than £100k, than you probably own a 944 Turbo......

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: sawood12

Neils suggestion about using a bullet cam is a good idea. I find that although I understand what a racing line is and how it looks when you are actually on the track rather than looking down onto the track from above it is difficult to pick out the racing line.

The most useful thing I find is that if its mounted high on the windscreen it gives you the angle to see just how many feet you were away from the kerb whne you thought you were clipping it like Schumacher []

 

[Diver944]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

Paul's slightly modified 944 is a scary ride as a passenger, but only for the first lap or two.

Mission accomplished []

It was worth the money just for that - Hurrah! []

 

[AndrewS]

Hi All,

Interesting debate this one. I would add my thoughts as follows:

[1] Tyres. This is your only contact with the track surface. It has more importance than anything else on the car.
[2] Driver. For me tyres are more important to my lap time than anything else. Not everybody would be happy with the knife edge limit characteristics of slicks though.
[3] Car. It's a given that it needs to be in good shape mechanically - but having 50:50 weight distribution with the weight over each axle is great for fast turns. 65% at the rear can help a 911 get excellent traction out of slower corners.
[4] BHP. The least important (compared to the three above) 120bhp made me only 3 secs a lap quicker at Castle Combe (in 2004 in the 422 that John Daly has now)

We can test all these theories at Silverstone during the track evenings. []

Regards,
Andrew

 

[John Sims]

IMHO there is much that will make a car quick on a track and the driver is obviously a vital component.

In early days on the track 90% of improvement comes from the driver. However, once that driver has learnt to extract 95% of the performance available from a particular car (and few do) trying to wring out that last 5% (without crashing) becomes more and more difficult.

I know this is an silly example but:-

If car A is capable of a 1 minute lap, and car B capable of a 2 minute lap - if car A is driven to 50% of its potential it will still be quicker than car B as it is unlikely Driver B will ever get 100% of what is available out of the car.

There is an exception to this - if car A is too powerful for the driver: When I started racing there were a lot of new guys starting at the same time. I had a 1300cc engine with single carb and all of the new guys had 1600 or 1700 with twin carbs (even 3500 V8's) - I would top out at 110, where as they would top out at 125. In the first year IIRC I finished higher in the championship than all of them. This wasn't because I was massively skilled but because my car wouldn't throw me in the gravel. As time went on the other guys managed not to visit the Kitty Litter quite so frequently and so they would beat me.

Toward the end of my days with the 1300 I was the only one running a 1300. There would be a group at the front that, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't catch. There would be a group at the back that couldn't catch me and I was left in the middle all by my self - I almost crashed at Druids once through boredom.

The moral of this story - a good driver can only get what is available out of a car, no matter how good the driver. However; while not necessarily as quick, there is as much, if not more, fun to be had in a "slower" car.

 

[Neil Haughey]

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
Paul's slightly modified 944 is a scary ride as a passenger, but only for the first lap or two. The sheer power is amazing when you come straight out of a tired Lux. The driving skills were. to be fair, faultless. But.... above all the car never felt as if it was at it's limits.

I don't know how many of the guys will agree with me on this one but the thing I found on my car that really surprised me was that once you went just that fraction to far over the limit you became effectively a passenger. I had 2 big moments at Bedford like that where in the first case I caught the slide but still spun off onto the edge of the outside of the corner. In the second one I had huge understeer and just had to wait to get it back but avoided crashing of by some stroke of luck. On many other occasions I could just go a little over and get away with it by making very very small corrections. I don't believe the 944 can take big corrections at all. IMHO this is due to the inherently good balance and stability of the car which can make a fast clean lap look like the driver is not on the limit. I am sure with a high locking factor LSD one could drive a lap sideways in a 944 with enough power but it would be very slow.

 

[Hilux]

Not everybody would be happy with the knife edge limit characteristics of slicks though.

Girly mode on................

Thats my problem [&:] I will get `sticky` road tyres one day but slicks are a totally different ball game. The corner speed is massive with a complete reliance upon the tyres. If you can put complete faith in your tyres you`ll be quick. I`m too old and too many offs to do that any more. Its also the case that when slicks let go (generally) you`re off big time unless you are highly experienced and can sense them going. Go off at speeds using slicks and even a 50m grass run off is not long enough in some instances.

I wouldnt go to serious sticky`s or slicks personally without a harness and ideally a 1/2 cage. Note also that on good road tyres they warm and you feel them getting progressively worse if you cannot get even wear or prevent feathering or they are cold and you have great fun at slower speeds.

Girly mode off........................

I don't believe the 944 can take big corrections at all.

Dunno about that Neil, its true that on 10/10ths in a corner any car will react to changes and go off but driving aggresively with sharp actions will unsettle any car. I`ve found that the 944 will take `corrections` quite well in order to steady it as the COG is fairly central so you never quite get the `911` pendulum effect nor the lift off oversteer of FWD cars.

I span (only once mind) and in tandem with the Weltmeister 968 on the tight l/h corner approaching the right hand pit straight curve and we span inside the car width in a straight line up the track, not off to the side rearwards like a 911.

 

[John Sims]

ORIGINAL: Hilux

I don't believe the 944 can take big corrections at all.

Dunno about that Neil, its true that on 10/10ths in a corner any car will react to changes and go off but driving aggresively with sharp actions will unsettle any car. I`ve found that the 944 will take `corrections` quite well in order to steady it as the COG is fairly central so you never quite get the `911` pendulum effect nor the lift off oversteer of FWD cars.

I span (only once mind) and in tandem with the Weltmeister 968 on the tight l/h corner approaching the right hand pit straight curve and we span inside the car width in a straight line up the track, not off to the side rearwards like a 911.

I'm with Paul on that. I've had Beaky go very sideways on me a couple of times (once in the damp at Copse and down through Craner Curves). On both occasions I thought it was going to end in a spin but gentle application of opposite lock and reducing the pressure of the right foot was enough to bring him back on line. This surprised me as, had I been in my Westfield, I would have gone off.

Again, as noted previously, input must be gentle and progressive. You can wrench the car around like some sort of hero, but there is little point.

Interesting point with regard to slicks. The nearest I've come is P Zero C's and Yoko 008R's. Neither of these are slicks (they are road legal -just) but they do grip much better than road tyres (in the dry) particularly as they warm up. Assuming I do get another set of track wheels I think I will fit road legal track tyres (such as the above) rather than go the full slicks route. That way I don't have to carry wheels to, or change wheels at, the track - I hate changing wheels.