911 Turbo: get 'em while they're hot!

[Alex L]

Has the Porsche 911 Turbo peaked?!

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=456639&an=0&page=0#456639

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=997turbo&Number=450471&page=0&fpart=1

No more GT1 derived professional grade engine. Instead a cheaper and weaker consumer grade M97 Turbo engine is probably to come for the MY2010 facelft. That (along with a PDK transmission capable of only 700Nm torque) could mean the end of aftermarket tuning, currently a HUGE selling point of the Turbo.

Glad I got mine when I did!

 

[sawood12]

Well it might not be that bad. The new engine has been breathed on so it is not the same as the previous one that had problems. Porsche have had a good 10yrs or so to get to grips with the problems with this unit and they say they have fixed them now. The long march for ever more performance while reducing emissions and decreasing fuel consumption is more likely to be the reason for the change. With the GT1 engine having been along for so long i'm sure they cost peanuts for Porsche to manufacture. All the manufacturing tooling and infrastructure is already in place and has paid for itself many time over. The game has been pushed on significantly with the introduction of direct injection that pushes up temps and stresses probably way beyond what the GT1 engine was ever originally conceived to stand.

 

[Grant]

Porsche are masters of evolutionary improvements, so we need not fear for the continued effective development of the flagship Turbo! Having said this expect a step further towards a more comfortable GT approach, with the more driver focused hardcore option as an extra! Like the new 20mm lower PASM & added rear diff!
If the GT1 block has been improved on, lets move on & embrace the benefits!
With regards to the other points, I am sure PDK WILL be on a TT very soon & I'm not a fan of aftermarket tuning! To be totally honest it is fine for the first owner, but as the car ages & mileage increases wear rates are higher with bigger bills inevitable. If it was as simple as bolting on two bigger Turbo's, a new high revving chip & free flow air-filter, don't you think Porsche would do it themselves as standard??! Its all about a balance between usability, reliability & durability over an expected 100k life span of an engine! In most cases Porsche engineer improvements in cooling, aerodynamics, clutch or component durability into most major increases in power, the 996 X-50 featured both gearbox, intercooler & clutch upgrades to cover a small 30BHP increase, aftermarket systems regularly add much more horsepower with a simple chip boost/rev limit increase & no other component changes... think about it a while!!!
Having said this I respect those that are happy to loose come re-sale time, for added spice during ownership, the standard car is a fair ground boost fest, the bog standard cars 480 horse is rather a lot, but a bigger boost is a bigger adrenalin hit, fair enough & illustrative of the problem we all face! Even when you have 900bhp, once you get used to it, things don't seem that fast anymore!!!!!!

 

[sawood12]

There will always be the possibility for aftermarket tuning. When you tune a car all you are doing is eating into the designers 'factor of safety' that gives the car it's reliability and longevity, and Porsche's factors of safety are much higher than other manufacturers, which is why they are so reliable and strong. You'd never stick the manual gearbox out of a bog std C2 into a turbo so it should be no surprise that the PDK for the turbo will also differ and be beefed up to take the extra torques.

From a technical perspective fixing the PDK is easy. You ask an engineer to design and develop a PDK box to take a gazillion HP and torque and he'll pop off with his slide rule and do it. It's what engineers do. It isn't an issue. What will be an issue is doing it in a cost effective way. We won't get a PDK gearbox in a 911 turbo until the beancounters' excel spreadsheets say yes.

Also there is also the possibility that Porsche could be planning something extra special for the next turbo's/GT2's PDK gearbox and transmission. I'd be very surprised if it isn't different - something that really throws the technical gauntlet down at Ferrari's e-diff and other transmittion trickery. I can't imagine a bog standard LSD is going to cut it. Truly medevil technology with no place on a modern flagship supercar.

Anyway i'm sure i've read somewhere that there will be no facelift 997 turbo's or GT2's so we might have to wait for the 998 before the new turbo is unveiled.

 

[Alex L]

I don't know where to start [&:]

Almost everything I have read over the past 2 years on this topic has suggested that Porsche is these days principally driven by profits and not by providing us with cutting edge technology. Take VTG for example - a revolution according to Porsche marketing. When in fact my turbo lag had been more decreased by an aftermarket free flowing exhaust than VTG ever did! The 997 Turbo was hailed as a 'masterpiece' by Porsche, but when you compare the NBR times to the GT2 you suddenly realize that the Turbo in it's stock guise has a lot of handling flaws. Even Walter says the Turbo is very hard to handle past 8/10th.

So you can believe if you like that Porsche dropping the GT1 engine is for progress sake but the majority of 997 Turbo owners on the web at least believe it is because:

1) DI is not easily compatible with a GT1 engine, so to improve fuel economy a new engine design is required.
2) Porsche wants to use the same base engine for all their cars thus saving money in manufacturing
3) Porsche realizes that the vast majority of new Turbo buyers don't know the difference between a professional and consumer grade engine and just want a GT car for their daily commute. This change makes Porsche about £20k additional profit on a Turbo engine given the cost of making a GT1 vs a M97.
4) Porsche simply do not like aftermarket tuners. Porsche like the fact that they keep so much in reserve that the next model year, to improve performance they don't have to redesign too much. That way the 5 year strategy is to release technology slowly to maximize profits. These days they are going out of their way to make aftermarket tuning harder and harder.

As for 'fixing PDK' being easy - Porsche have delayed and delayed and delayed over releasing PDK. From what I have heard this is because of cost, weight and torque issues. PDK in a Carrera 997.2 is slower than a manual above 60mph. This is because it weights so much. So if Porsche have struggled then the aftermarket companies will REALLY struggle to fix PDK.

There are currently two version of PDK made by ZF developed for Porsche: 7 DT 45 (max. 450Nm) and 7 DT 70 (max. 700Nm) The bigger version will be in Facelift 997 Turbo. According to lots of sources I have seen on the web the Facelift 997 Turbo with PDK will be impossible to tune.

With regards to aftermarket tuning in general - I think there are 3 types of conversions:

1) Those that just re-flash their ECU and nothing else - yes, that eats into Porsche operating margins and decreases the life-span of the car.
2) Those that go the whole hog and put 650-700bhp kits on - yes, I think this would also shorten the life-span of your car
3) Those of us that replace standard parts with inefficiencies such as the exhaust, plenum, air-filter etc and then remap the ECU to take advantage of these increases in efficiencies - which I think actually INCREASES the life span of the car! My car for example now gets BETTER fuel economy and revs much freer/smoother all with a lot more power.

Then there are those who recognise that the standard car from Porsche could be made to handle better by stripping weight, or changing the suspension etc. The Ruf RT12 for example - what a car! So I think the Porsche aftermarket sector plays a huge role in making Porsche what it is - take this away and I think you lose a LOT of the magic. I certainly won't be buying another Porsche if they continue in this direction.

 

[Paultje]

I seem to remember the same arguements going on in '98 about the transition between 993 and 996.......Deja vu?

 

[Grant]

Hi Alex,
I can empathise with some of your points, there is no doubt that Porsche do ensure "evolutionary steps only large enough to maximise sales/margins" when their engineering expertise allows greater leaps at each stage, but this could be levelled at most other car manufacturers, the only reason it "irks" more with Porsche is because of their reputation for engineering excellence!!
I still can't agree fully about the aftermarket mods though, you have to remember that Porsche cannot sell the Turbo with (for example) a free flow 100 cell cat system as it would not meet emission/long term MOT/ + Noise requirements! It is easy to improve on certain areas of any car manufacturers design, as the aftermarket has less restrictions & allows owners to take a risk that the drive by noise won't be measured by the police & the owner accepts a possible "risk" with MOT emissions!
So I can see that an exhaust system with racing cats reducing back pressure is potentially a good mod, it adds a little extra grunt (20bhp-ish) & faster Turbo spool without any major extra demands on the engine! The stock air-intake system is VERY efficient & gains are negliable in this area! BUT as I said before the main power gain is usually via the ECU with increased boost pressure, yes there are margins built into Porsches design, but adding extra horses do add extra stress & wear on the engine FACT! You can kid yourself that it doesn't, but it does & some one some where later in the cars life cycle pays the piper! If you are happy to pay the price fine, the adrenalin pumping benefits are clear, but personally I wouldn't consider buying a modified car beyond exhaust/air intake & expert suspension mods for track work!
Ultimately the problem with power is you never have enough, because you get used to it over time, which is why I chose to go from 996TT to 997 GT3 rather than 997TT, the GT3 isn't any quicker than the 996TT so clearly the 997TT is faster in a straight line out the box, but the GT3 is in another league for driver involvment, exhaust note & interaction as ever you pays your money & take the choice! Sometimes less is more!
A standard 997TT with the new 20mm lowered PASM, rear diff & a sports exhaust will be a better choice than a 650bhp mega boost beast IMO, but as ever one man meat is anothers poison!
G

 

[Alex L]

My 200 cell exhaust is TUV approved which conforms to all noise and emissions regulations. Also, I know first hand that Porsche tried to come up with a Sports Exhaust for the Turbo and after a year or so they shelved the project as they couldn't make it sound good enough. So don't assume it's the standards here that are holding them back!

For tuning I think MPG is an excellent indication of whether you have increased or decreased the longevity of your car. My fuel economy has actually gone UP by at least 2-6 mpg since my powerkit. This means greater efficiency and over time the components are actually doing less work. Yes the one-time 'stress' when I put my right foot down fully is more than stock, but if it's still well within tolerance (of a car that's been forged over many years on the race track) then I don't see an issue.

To me the benefits FAR outweigh the (potential) drawbacks. We are not in a 'sensible' arena here - we are buying supercars, spending stupid money on going from A to B! If I saw a 997 Turbo with a GT1 derived engine with a Ruf or Cargraphic (RS-Tuning) powerkit on it as a second-hand prospect I would JUMP on it!!!! These are the two best tuners as far as I am concerned and have just as much knowledge and excellence as Porsche does.

The 997 GT3 is currently the only 'perfect' car that Porsche makes straight from the factory (although I have heard a re-alignment even on a GT3 has huge benefits). So taking another model rated at 8/10 and making it a 10/10 is not something that should be frowned upon just because the manufacturer who only offers 2 year warranty wants to make you feel you have done something wrong - just so that they can sell you the next model.

 

[Grant]

TUV approved or not, you are forgetting that this system will still be more polluting than the standard Porsche system, this is the reason they don't fit one as standard, the 100/200 cell cats also have a shorter life span from what I understand!

Alex I'm not arguing with you about the aural & faster turbo spool benefits of the Cargraphic system, I had one on my 996TT & it transformed one the cars main weaknesses, its lack of interactive engine note. I'm only reasoning why Porsche don't fit them as standard.

I always looked after my Turbo, let it tick over after a fast run, never booted it until warmed up etc, the only modification was the oforementioned sports exhaust system, I sold it at 4 years old with 26k miles & not long afterwards the engine let go in big way! Thankfully it was still for sale & under OPC warranty, the failure may have been due to some work the OPC had recently performed on an oil leak, who knows, my point is these engines take a lot of stress as standard, ok they are designed for it & clearly have capacity for minor increases in power, but you don't (unfortunately) get something for nothing, there is always pay back at some time!!

Anyway I'm still in awe of the beast you have created, a fabulous car may I say, it is only my tight nature that steers me away from the modified route really, if you put the costs aside & don't think about repair or depreciation, you have one adrenalin pumping joy fest sitting in your garage. I hope you continue to enjoy what must be one of the fastest point to point cars out there & you have clearly gained much pleasure in fettling the beast to your own specification, long may that continue. I don't think you need fear that the option to modify will go with the next generation Turbo, where there's a Turbo there's always a way to increase the booooost[]!!!

 

[Alex L]

I see what you are saying Grant and I completely agree with a lot of it. I also thank you for the kind works regarding my motor - driving nivarna can indeed be found by opening my garage door each weekend []

I really hope Porsche don't sell out and let the sales/marketing departments move them away from making historically THE best sport/super-cars out there. My cynicism though thinks this already happened a fair few years back (driven by the obsession of maximizing profits to buy VW) and the competition has been allowed to not only catch up but surpass them. These days Audi, Lamborghini, Ferrari and even Nissan have made Porsche look like they have been standing still in their development since they released the jaw-dropping Carrera GT.

Anyhoo, Kreso just posted this great summary of probable engine differences for the current and facelift Turbos:

Current 997 Turbo engine:

* bulletproof design
* tuning friendly despite VTG
* excellent CO2 emissions but, only EU4 norm
* very expensive to build
* slower to build then forthcoming DFI engine
* true dry sump
* only possible with manual(Getrag) and TIP(MB), not suitable for PDK(ZF build)
* almost impossible to switch to DFI
* current state of the art in non DFI gasoline engines

Forthcoming FL 997 Turbo engine:

* DFI with turbo
* different power/torque tuning, truly NO turbo lag any more, torque curve much wider
* little bit more power then current engine
* very friendly for PDK and all networked engine system(much more then current engine)
* integrated dry sump with 4 pumps(if P. Gods are listening true dry sump is possible solution)
* amazing CO2 emissions, EU5 and lowest USA standards as well, less emissions then Audi S5 for example
* very cost friendly for P. since it is sharing parts with all new DFI family
* will use lower boost and higher compression ration for more power/torque
* will be very hard to tune(rumors say NO tuning any more)

 

[garyw]

If the pro's are correct and this does happen, then I'm not seeing that many downsides..[&:]
Okay the loss is the tuning, which bears little or no interest to 99% of owners- and its the majority they will be looking at..

For the tuners then I guess it will be other models that keep the GT1 block that will get the tweaks.

With the GT1 block having won best sports car engine again this year it will be a shame.
However the EU will not wave any fines just because its an award winning engine, and Yes I do believe that Porsche group holdings are more interested in profits than anything else... sign of the times at the moment.

garyw

 

[Alex L]

Loss of a true dry sump and moving to a 'consumer' grade engine (not for racing) would mean that I certainly wouldn't ever want to chance taking the car to track days. It would become a pure GT car for the road.

I *believe* only the GT3RS will keep the GT1 engine given current rumours, so this will effect the GT3 and GT2 also. Although, if they want to justify the price jump up to the GT2 then perhaps that will keep the GT1 engine too.

An engine that currently costs about £26k would move down to one that costs £6k - I'm a strong believer in life of 'you get what you pay for'.

When Porsche starts racing with these new engines THEN I will be convinced this is a good thing, not before.

 

[sawood12]

Well it is easy to turn to conspiracy theories when Porsche does something that you'd hope they wouldn't or something you don't want them to do. It sounds like the GT1 derrived engine has come to the end of its useful life in relation to a road car if it cannot be converted to DFI and used in conjunction with the PDK. DFI is clearly a key enabling technology that will allow the 911, in its current format, to move up to the next level i.e. increase in power/torque/performance, to keep it up there with the competition whilst reducing fuel consumption and emissions. And PDK is a huge leap forward into the 21st century that will result in a faster car on track or road,even if it is heavier. If the GT1 engine cannot be made to work with these new technologies then it is just a good old fashioned engineering decision that a new engine is developed that can take the 911 forward.

It may very well be the case that the GT1 engine might still be used in motorsport for some time, but in this application it doesn't have to comply to the same rules as a road car. And unfortunately the way motorsport is going at the moment, the internal combustion engine is nearing the end anyway - it will be hybrids and fuel cells that power racing cars.

I'm sure it wont take long for aftermarket companies to crack upgrades for the new car and surpass performance improvements that they currently are getting. The variable guide vane turbo and DFI are extra parameters the aftermarket tuning companies can tweak to get even more performance out of the cars (just as variable valve timing and lift were when that was introduced). I'm sure they cannot wait to get their hands on them. At the end of the day with the tighter and tigher environmental rules that Porsche as a responsible car maker has to comply to and that aftermarket tuning companies don't, there will be more and more potential for the aftermarket tuners to tap into.

Porsche are not going to guarantee their future by introducing inferior cars.

 

[Alex L]

Thomas Wassabach's (head of FL 997 Carrera engine development) quote in the Chris Harris interview, that he conceded that DI could be implemented into the GT1 block/crankcase for the FL Turbo, I suspect that also PDK could be "friendly" and implemented into the GT1 block for the Turbo (and GT2 and GT3), rather than just in the new FL engine. Here again, marketing (and business operations management) trumps engineering.

So it's more about saving money than an engineering barrier.

The main thing here is that Porsche realize the GT1 engine is far too 'over-engineered' for the normal Turbo customer to appreciate. It can easily handle 700bhp/900Nm torque and be reliable. This is from thousands and thousands of hours testing and refinement on the race track. The new Turbo engine may be stronger, but it certainly won't be as over-engineered as the current model is. This will mean much less headroom for aftermarket tuners.

Also I believe DFI engines are currently not allowed in racing, so that will be interesting too if they put DFI into GT3 etc.

 

[Alex L]

Current 997 to 998 'rumours' are:

• Short '09 TT production (Sept - Jan perhaps)
• Nothing for a few months after that into the winter/spring
• Early '10 TT model release in Spring of 2009
• GT1 block for '09 TT w/updated PCM/Bluetooth, same exterior/interior styling
• M97 block for '10 TT w/likely styling changes (fascia, etc, as seen)
• Possibly no TT for '11
• New model/redesign '12

 

[nathan 1981 930 G50]

http://ramblin.gs/messages/12382

 

[graham m]

Great sound track!