924S Vs 944 AS A RACE CAR

[Andy97]

Hi I am looking in to the possibility of a 924S or a 944 as a race car for the Classic Sports Car Club's "Future Classics" Series ( see here: http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/FutureClassics.htm, basically a series of 40 min mini-enduro races for 1 or 2 drivers with a compulsory pit stop).

I was thinking that the 924S such as this one: http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=16201 might be suitable for the 2 litre to 3 litre class. Or possibly a 944 such as this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300209214796&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020

I would expect both engines to produce similar power - c 160 bhp - as they both appear to have been prepared to the PCGB Club Championship rules. There are already 3 or 4 x 944s racing in the series but I thought that the 924S might be a bit lighter (as well as cheaper). Anyone got any views on this, anyone know how to extract a bit more power from a 924S/ 944 engine? The rules are quite free in "Future Classics" but I won't want to spend vast amounts of £!

Competition in the class comes from a Rover Tomcat (2 litre Turbo), a Mazda RX7, BMW 3series and an Alfa GTV6.

In an ideal world I'd run a 944 Turbo in the top class such as these: http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=13078 but I don't have the cash unfortunately.

 

[James_G]

Hi

As I understand it, it's tricky to get significant power gains from the NA engines beyond the chipping route. However a quick phonecall to EMC, who prepare 944s and 968s (and probably plenty of others) for racing, would no doubt elicit some more in depth advice.

Whatever though, it sounds like a lot of fun. Good luck.

 

[Diver944]

I've heard and read that EMC claim circa 190bhp for their race prepped 2.5 engines but have not seen it independantly verified.

In theory the 924 should be lighter, but when you come down to race cars with lightweight body panels and stripped out interiors it all depends what has been done. At the end of the day they are the same basic chassis so it all depends how heavy the bolt on bits are - like suspension, brakes etc

Might be a good idea to find out the dry weight of each car as the adverts don't state it as far as I can see [&:]

 

[Andy97]

The relative power to weight ratios of the various cars in the 2 Porsche racing series are here:

http://www.porscheclubmotorsport.co.uk/content/club/cars.asp

http://www.porscheclubmotorsport.co.uk/content/open/cars.asp

The Class 4 Porsche 944s in the Porsche Open seris (of which the one under discussion here seems to be an example) would have a power to weight ration of 0.138 Kw per Kg, putting it on a par with the 924 carrera GT in the Porsche Club series and being slightly better than a Club series 944 S2. (As a comparison my old standard road 944 Turbo would have a power to weight ration of 0.14 if we assume a kerb weight of 1330Kg)

The crux of the e-mail I exchange with the owner of the 944 is here, expalining how the difference in weight and power for 944s is achieved between the 2 seperate series :

1. the following panels are lightweight fiberglass, front wings, bonnet, front badge panel, rear bumper. All underseal has been removed from the shell, all excess brackerty has been removed, spare wheel well removed and replaced with lightweight aluminuim panel, door inner panels cut away and doors lightented.
2. The rear hatch is glass to meet the porsche club spec but the car also comes with a perspex light weight hatch.
3. with light weight doors and perspex windows and rear hatch fitted car weights approx 970kg.
4. With standard airbox as required for the porsche club championship power is 163bhp. With modified intake approx 180bhp.

The 924S owner has not got back to me yet but I assuming that the car is to Porsche Club regs and therefore has power to weight ratio of 0.1 Kw per Kg.

I wonder how easy (expensive) it is to get the 924S down to 970Kg & up the power to the 180 bhp of the 944? It might be thet I would end up spending more money than if I'd bought the 944 in the first place!

 

[Andy97]

I wonder how difficult (expensive) it would be to buy one of these cars and fit a 968 engine and gearbox - I understand that Simon Butterworth (Porsche-Apart???) did that in a 924 for hillclimbing and sprinting.

 

[edh]

I think that car is for sale Andy

bit more expensive than the cars you're looking at, but probably cheaper than converting one yourself.

http://www.porsche968uk.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5439

It sounds great - but just a bit pricy for me....

 

[Andy97]

Yes, it is very pricey! For the same money you'd get the cheapest of the race prepared 944 Turbos mentioned in my first post & at least that would be a proper model that could be raced in the Porsche Open series and might (eventually) be eligible for some form of historic racing. This is a mongrel. A very good mongrel but nevertheless I would expect it to have limited appeal. At £4K I'd be tempted but certainly not £8K.

 

[edh]

I agree - I'd have my hand in my pocket at 4k []

 

[PIRATEPETE]

Hi Andy

imho some of the comment are a bit misguided. Firstly a 924 with 968 engine is not eligble for any race series suitable for a clubman as you must have the original engine type. secondly a 944 benifits from being able to fit bigger wheels and tyres and has bigger brakes. On the weight issue my 924 2ltr race car weighs 1020kg with 95kg driver in and 15 litres of fuel ths has an acid dipped shell and fiberglass bupers wings, bonnet and front panel as well as plastic windows. I believe a similar spec 944 would be about 1150-1200 kg.

The idea of racing a turbo 944 in the porsche open is madness as it will be to slow and far to expensive check out previouse grids and lap times on line for confirmation. The porsche clb championship is far more affordble and if i was on a tight budget i would consider a 944s2 these are are very reasonable and competetive. cars are availble for around 7k race ready this is far cheaper than building a car.

I hope i have not appeared negative as i beleive as i believe a 944 is a good budget choice if you want to ring me regarding racing a porsche pm me and i will send you my number.

Ps I have an immaculate s2 with nearly new engine for 4k (roadcar) still think its better to buy one done though

cheers

 

[Andy97]

ORIGINAL: PIRATEPETE

Hi Andy

imho some of the comment are a bit misguided. Firstly a 924 with 968 engine is not eligble for any race series suitable for a clubman as you must have the original engine type. secondly a 944 benifits from being able to fit bigger wheels and tyres and has bigger brakes. On the weight issue my 924 2ltr race car weighs 1020kg with 95kg driver in and 15 litres of fuel ths has an acid dipped shell and fiberglass bupers wings, bonnet and front panel as well as plastic windows. I believe a similar spec 944 would be about 1150-1200 kg.

The idea of racing a turbo 944 in the porsche open is madness as it will be to slow and far to expensive check out previouse grids and lap times on line for confirmation. The porsche clb championship is far more affordble and if i was on a tight budget i would consider a 944s2 these are are very reasonable and competetive. cars are availble for around 7k race ready this is far cheaper than building a car.

I hope i have not appeared negative as i beleive as i believe a 944 is a good budget choice if you want to ring me regarding racing a porsche pm me and i will send you my number.

Ps I have an immaculate s2 with nearly new engine for 4k (roadcar) still think its better to buy one done though

cheers

Pete

Thanks for your input. I accept that ehe 924/68 hybrid will not be eligible for any of the PCGB series but there are others it could run in such as the Welsh or Northern Saloon & Sports Car series, LMA EuroSaloons & Sports or the CSCC's "Future Classics" (and it is certainly the latter that I am examining) where modifications away from standard are accepted.

The 944 Turbo would probably go well in the latter too. But, if you can point me in the direction of race prepared S2s for £7K, I might be interested - the only one I have seen for sale is at Charles Ivey & they want £14K for theirs.

Regards

Andy

 

[PIRATEPETE]

Hi andy

i beleive that you still need the original engine for future classics although they do allow a lot of mods. Have you had a look on racecarsdirect.com they regularly have race 944 for 8k or less. If i spot anything i will pm you. good luck

regards
pete

 

[AndrewS]

Hi Andy / Pete,

Race cars take a lot of time and money to prepare. I sold my 924S Porsche Cup car for £10,000 in 2000 after the 1999 season. As there are still a few series (including the PCGB Championship) where they can be entered - well prepared cars will still be a similar price today.

The 924S has better aerodynamics than the 944, but the 2.7 has ABS. The 924S is lighter to start with, hence will get down to the weight limit easier. However, there is not much in either model - as lonf as you have the 163bhp 944 engine (has higher compression than the 924S). 1988 924S and 944 models were both 160bhp and the 2.7 was more (the real advantage being ABS). Most racing 924S/944 models will run a skimmed block and head to increase compression.

Ideally, a (good) race car is one that was prepared from a bare bead blasted shell with a blueprinted engine that has proven power output and fully optimised suspension and geometry (as well as a good design roll cage and all the mandatory safety equipment). If it has a string of good results to prove its worth - the value will be higher.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Andy97]

This was one of the 3 cars that I highlighted in an earlier post, now seems to be for sale elsewhere:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/510393.htm

Anyone got a view? I am looking for a car for the CSCC "Future Classics" series that I could also use for track days and to have some instruction in. It looks quite nice to me, although I know it was used for track days. Would go well in the top class of FC, I think.

I am also aware that Charles Ivey have another S2 race car, in addition to the one advertised on thier website at £14K, for sale for £7K - described as needing paint!

 

[AndrewS]

Hi,

That looks like the ex. Tony Littlejohn Cup car. Built from a Silver Rose in 1998 (I have the preparation pictures). Ran for 3 Cup seaons from 1998 to 2000.

Has done track days ever since (I've seen it at Bedford Autodrome a few times).

Regards,
Andrew

 

[Andy97]

Thanks Andrew, the pictures would be useful if you can find them. Any view on the asking price?

 

[Andy97]

ORIGINAL: Andy97

This was one of the 3 cars that I highlighted in an earlier post, now seems to be for sale elsewhere:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/510393.htm

Anyone got a view? I am looking for a car for the CSCC "Future Classics" series that I could also use for track days and to have some instruction in. It looks quite nice to me, although I know it was used for track days. Would go well in the top class of FC, I think.

I am also aware that Charles Ivey have another S2 race car, in addition to the one advertised on thier website at £14K, for sale for £7K - described as needing paint!

I have spoken tp Charles Ivey about their second 944 and the spec is as follows:
968 ARBs, LSD, Fibre Glass front wings & bonnet, a weight of approx 1200kg,onboard, Koni double adjustable coil over suspension & Stainless Steel Braided Hoses. Suitable for the Porsche Club series.

It has recently been re-sprayed since my first conversation with them and they now want £8K for it. It was their "spare" car apparently.

Anyone got a view on the price of such a car? Always difficult to price race cars, I suppose but some help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Andy