944 sills

[JamesBall]

Huw. There have been a lot of posts on sills. Have you tried a search (limit the time period to 6 months or so otherwise it seems to time out). In summary: - a "proper" job is £1200 a side ish - less serious rust can be fixed for a few hundred quid up. People on here have gone both ways. The general rule is, however, if a car has rusty sills, walk away. There are LOADS out there for sale and there is no need to saddle yourself with one with rusty sills before you have even started. Although I think there is an argument that at least if you have fixed the rust you know it is sorted where as a more expensive, rust-free car may be on the brink of showing rust and you might not know it. Bare in mind, what you can see is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Joss Walker]

Hi Huw There is always lots of talk on this forum regarding sills, they are one of the killers for our cars and probably the major contributor to why the numbers are diminishing. Typical received wisdom has been to budget 1,200GBP (Sorry, I have a foreign keyboard that can't type the pound symbol) per side and recently this has been criticised as too high, a number of members have managed to replace theirs for considerably less. I believe that the panels alone are in the region of 250GBP per side and if the sills have gone then another place to check are the rear sections of all four wheel arches and these normally need to have patches made to suit. If you can do the work yourself or 'have a mate in the biz' then I believe that the majority of the work is labour related, and you will be able to keep the cost down. I bought my car three years ago knowing that it would need new sills, it went in a couple of months ago and is having all the sections I referred to replaced, as well as the tops of the doors which had also started to go. The very slow man doing my work is meant to be some kind of magician and as I plan to keep the car a long time (have you had a chance to properly drive a 944 yet?, most of us on this forum love the cars!) so I am prepared for the high cost, I had three different quotes and all of them were in the region of 2,500GBP but I am also including a few other dents and almost a complete re-spray in that work. Before being too despondent, have you tried the trick of slipping a webcam/camera into the sills to see how bad they are inside? you can use the ventilation louvres in the door jams to gain access. Depending how good the rest of the car is, I would really consider how much you want to invest in the first couple of years and where the bodywork costs fit into this scheme. As always its a personal choice but many people would spend this much money putting shiny wheels on an anonymous modern hatch and not get anywhere near the driving enjoyment that you could achieve.

 

[huw]

Can anyone give me a rough idea how much it would cost to replace both sills? Have found a nice S2 apart from sills.

 

[Chrishazle]

Huw, is this another argument towards getting an S3 - I've seen little or nothing about sill problems on 968's, either here or on porsche968uk forum! When you add £2500 to the cost of a decent 944, you're into 968 cost area - without considering the future cost comparison.

 

[huw]

Persistent! Thanks Chris.As I said before, I would love a 968, and yes I can see the sense of it, but I just don't have the money. Due to some house renovation and a wife who is becoming less understanding, I have a total budget of £3500. About nine months ago, that looked a very realistic price for a decent S2, however, prices seem to have gone up recently and all the cars that I have seen have got rusty sills. I'm not really after a project (I did that with an Austin Healey Sprite), I just wanted something that I could drive immediately and enjoy the summer. I have always loved the nine for four and thoroughly enjoyed driving one back in the 90s, but I just can't seem to find one, hence my looking for a 924S. It's all getting to be rather depressing and maybe I am being unrealistic about my budget. Good luck with selling the 968, it looks great.

 

[huw]

Hi Joss, thanks to your advice. You seem to be saying the same as virtually everybody else. Unfortunately, I am not competent enough to do the work myself. I have just posted a message to Chris saying that I think I might be being unrealistic about my budget. Nine months ago there seemed to be loads around. Maybe I'll just have to wait until next year. I just don't understand why these cars are not being restored or better looked after. I think that they are a classic, yet people just seem to drive them and break them when they're knackered. When you look at what people are doing to and spending on MGB, it just doesn't make sense. There is absolutely no comparison. Happy days!

 

[huw]

Thanks for your response James. I feared that that might be the figure. I just don't have the budget to do it. It's a real shame as a bloke just down the road had a beautiful S2 that was mechanically good, but both sills were rotten. Think I might give up until next year and see what happens.

 

[colin944]

Where abouts in the country are you? If you are close to me I am sure we could sort your sills for you. Or put you onto a good S2 that is not in need of sills.

 

[Joss Walker]

Huw - I wonder if this may be a timing issue? I started considering a 964 just after Christmas and whilst trying to make up my mind I have watched the prices rise and rise. I don't know if this is a case of demand for a second/summer car increasing as the sun starts to come out, this always used to be true for convertibles, or if there is a small resurgence in the classic car market. My fingers are crossed that the prices will fall again in the autumn. On the other hand, since I already have a 944, maybe the remaining number are finally increasing in value.....he lights the blue touch paper and steps back!

 

[craig2105]

I looked at a 968 last weekend. Believe me, they are not immune to the problem...

 

[pauljmcnulty]

£3500 just isn't enough to buy a decent S2 IMO. I'm excluding here people who do all the work on their own cars, this is aimed at people like myself who have to pay labour, parts and VAT on everything. We've said for years you need to keep at least £1K in a slush fund for the first year, excluding anything you know is wrong when you buy the car, just for what crops up later. You might get lucky, but most owners here find a good few bills in their firsy year or two. That takes the amount you can spend on a car to nearer £2.5K, and that for a good one? No chance. Buy a Lux, or even a 924S, for that money and keep the change as a comfort zone. As an example, my S2 was pretty near immaculate when I bought it two years ago for not much more than your budget. In that time, on top of servicing, it's had two tyres, a major brake overhaul, ARB overhaul, and now having the fuel lines replaced. At the cost here in the South East that's about your budget, an S2 can throw large bills at you. The first signs of rust are appearing now, so time to think about work to all four wings, both sills and a load of little chips and dinks, probably a full re-spray. That'll be your budget again. And I still need a suspension overhaul. [] The 8V cars are much cheaper to buy, can be significantly cheaper to run and are arguably as much or more fun anyway.

 

[huw]

Colin, thanks for the post unfortunately, I live in Dorset-opposite end of the country!

 

[JamesBall]

As a data point, I paid £3500 for my car (or was it £3,800?!) and I've spent £2500 on it in its first year (24k service, 4 new tyres & alignment, new fuel lines, new leads, rotor arms etc and a few other bits and pieces. I'd have thought £3500 would be enough for a decent S2 if you look hard enough but always expect to spend £1k+ on it in the first year.

 

[huw]

Thanks Paul. You may well be right, but there are a number of people out there who own them who are adamant that I should be able to afford an S2. So, which S1? A 2.5 or a 2.7? I have heard bad things about the 16 valve cars. Is this justified? I have just had a look on piston heads and there is a really nice white car with Fuch wheels up in the Midlands for about £1600. There's also a nice light metallic blue 2.7 on eBay that is quite close to me in Wiltshire. The trouble is, I just seem to keep driving round the country which is getting quite expensive and frustrating. I suppose I could get a cheaper early car and spend some money on getting it to perform a bit better. Anyway, thanks for your input.

 

[Lowtimer]

Just to straighten out the nomenclature, there's no such thing as an S1. All 8-valve normally aspirated cars are Luxes whether they are early or late cars. They are either 2.5 litre (most) or 2.7 litre (very late ones only). The S is the 16-valve 2.5. The S2 is the 16-valve 3.0 litre. All factory turbos are 8-valve 2.5 litre. All 968s except for a handful of factory Turbos have the same 16v 3.0 litre, which is a further development of the S2 engine. Although the 944 is cheap to buy it is not fundamentally cheaper to run than a 911 of the same vintage. They all cost money to run, because they are all old cars, and are were very expensive and well engineered when new, and have parts prices to match.

 

[simkin911]

Huw, I think £3500 will get a reasonable s2 - not perfect by any stretch of the imagination - but decent and capable of day to day driving. Don't be put off my high miles if money has been spent. Condition is more important. I think you need to widen your search and look nationwide. If you see something really interesting then see if you can identify someone locally via the forum who could check it out for you. Have you looked on Ebay and Pistonheads? There were a number of them recently within your budget - I suspect one or two would be decent. In the last 4 weeks I watched (on Ebay) a black J plate 115k go for £2061 and then be resold at £4150 this week and also an '89 non-sunroof s2 go for £1650 and is now on Pistonheads for £5495. Both cars looked very decent at those prices. Finally, there's a regular poster on here (Sulzeruk) who has maybe 3 s2 models in his garage mostly needing little bits of work - suggest you at least give him a ring for a chat. He's in central Scotland but not the other end of the world if you end up with a decent car within budget. He looks after my s2 and helps a few others with their cars too. (Edit to say I missed your last post and see that you have already been on Ebay/Pistonheads).

 

[huw]

Thanks very much for the advice.

 

[Joss Walker]

ORIGINAL: Lowtimer Although the 944 is cheap to buy it is not fundamentally cheaper to run than a 911 of the same vintage.

I have to agree, and would say that there is no such thing as a cheap Porsche, just some of them are cheaper to buy than others. I didn't realise this until I was into my S2 ownership but the logic is quite obvious when you think about it; tyres, brakes, exhausts etc are all the same kind of price for 911s and 944s, equally the things that start to go due to the car's age are probably similar across the Porsche range too. My experience has been similar to James's with new fuel lines, servicing, power steering pumps etc eating through about 2.5k in the first 18 months, of course now I'm well and truly snared and onto KW suspension and Cup 1 wheels, once you get the bug I think that the list keeps extending. Once the car is sorted though I would anticipate a good few years of relatively little expense, and of course it doesn't have a monthly lease payment like most my friends (inferior) cars do! I would definitely recommend buying a car that allows a slush fund for the rainy days if at all possible.

 

[Suffolk944]

ORIGINAL: craig2105 I looked at a 968 last weekend.  Believe me, they are not immune to the problem...

Indeed so - its not so long ago that people were saying that 944's dont rust - imho its only that 968's are that bit younger that the problem hasn't (literally) surfaced with them so far in a significent way and quite possibly their cill/sill body kits hide things that become apparent on 944's that much sooner.. If the received wisdom is that late 944's are more rust prone that older ones (down to steel/build quality) then does it not follow that 968's will be of the same ilk as they are also from the cash strapped early nineties...

 

[Pastry]

My '88 944 hasn't cost much. It was a low-miler and has sound sills. I don't agree with them being as expensive to run as a 911, they were built for a cheaper market, are less complicated, and share parts with VW's. Mine's cost about the same to run over the last 30 months as the o/h's 1.9 golf (not including petrol). I've blogged it on PH - http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/members/showcar.asp?carId=93664 I was after a car that wasn't a money pit and the 2.5 makes sense having simpler brakes, less stressed engine and being less susceptible to rot, also its not got A/C . I do simple jobs myself on the driveway and take it to a good local indie for the rest. There are plenty on the market so keep looking and a good one will come up, just be prepared to give it the TLC that any 20+ year old car deserves.