944 suspension set up- what is the best for track use?

[Masher]

I have just done my first track day in the 944 any fundamentally i was thrilled with it. The one area it is found wanting is the suspension. Clearly there is room for improvement. Since the car will principally be used for track days, can anyone advise on what suspension to consider as an upgrade? KW, Gaz...

I am inclined towards KW because they have a good reputation on 964s which are cars i know rather better. If anyone knows of any good deals going that is always a help too
Cheers
Mick

 

[Cater_Racer]

Your car looks like it has already been lowered?

So what is your starting point? Torsion bars? Indexed? Coil-overs?

 

[edh]

for track only I'd take it to emc and get them to fit their custom gaz setup.

I've got kw - probably the best road / track compromise but ultimately a bit soft for track work. I've just fitted stiffer springs to mine. It means it isnt quite as pleasant on the roads but that's always the compromise you make.

a track only car wants a more aggressive geo as well. I'm running 3 deg neg camber on the fronts now.

there seems to be a bit of a problem with most aftermarket suspension being noisy - the kw's aren't.

 

[Cater_Racer]

ORIGINAL: edh

for track only I'd take it to emc and get them to fit their custom gaz setup.

I've got kw - probably the best road / track compromise but ultimately a bit soft for track work. I've just fitted stiffer springs to mine. It means it isnt quite as pleasant on the roads but that's always the compromise you make.

a track only car wants a more aggressive geo as well. I'm running 3 deg neg camber on the fronts now.

there seems to be a bit of a problem with most aftermarket suspension being noisy - the kw's aren't.

I've got KW's on and also thought about stronger springs, I've indexed the rear so that the torsion bars and the KW's work together.

But interested to know what spring rates your running and where did you get them?

 

[Masher]

I don't know 944s since i have only had one a week so i have no starting point. Looking for something really planted on the track that is mot impossible to drive 1000 road miles a year. Suggestions welcome.
Cheers
Mick

 

[Eldavo]

I have KW Clubsport on mine. Amazing on swoopy smooth blacktop but rattles your fillings on the motorway.


If you're ever up this way I'll take you out in mine.

 

[Neil Haughey]

I used to drive mine on the road but the shocks especially on the front were low on gas pressure. I drove it twice on the road after the shocks were rebuilt and it was still comfortable on major roads but noticeably stiffer, really wouldn't have wanted to have driven it on bad surfaces.

To be honest the bigger issue with driving on the road is to do with geo and ride height setup, firtsly in that you will struggle to drive the car around on a full track/race setup and secondly as I found all the bumps etc on the road knock the hell out of the geo setup with stiff springs shocks. Generally with the race cars geo is checked at least twice a year and IMHE it can go out enough in that time. In my case 3 track days and a couple of K road miles knocked mine waay out so I just don't take the thing on road any more.

Finally of course at the end of a long day these cars are very tiring to drive home compared to a nice comfy cruiser like my old Range Rover towing barge, I did a 6 hr jaunt in her once after a race at Snetterton to get home. Longest day I did in the S2 on the road I did a track evening at Donny a couple of years back, drove from here up during the day, did the evening on track and drove back to my parents for a stop over. Not doing it again it was hot and extremely tiring.

 

[nicksonmsport]

whats the car running atm? also what anti rollbars are u running. you want some m030 arbs if you havnt already. i have a mega rare turbo cup rear arb m030 3 hole adjustable 21mm. give me a shout if your interested. fronts are quite hard to find but do come up every now and again, and are available from porsche sometimes when they have enough on back order. otherwise a front custom item can be had from the states for slightly more money.

well worth it though

 

[edh]

ORIGINAL: Cater_Racer

ORIGINAL: edh

for track only I'd take it to emc and get them to fit their custom gaz setup.

I've got kw - probably the best road / track compromise but ultimately a bit soft for track work. I've just fitted stiffer springs to mine. It means it isnt quite as pleasant on the roads but that's always the compromise you make.

a track only car wants a more aggressive geo as well. I'm running 3 deg neg camber on the fronts now.

there seems to be a bit of a problem with most aftermarket suspension being noisy - the kw's aren't.

I've got KW's on and also thought about stronger springs, I've indexed the rear so that the torsion bars and the KW's work together.

But interested to know what spring rates your running and where did you get them?

All the info's on my project thread - towards the end. I bought the springs from Dave Walsh (Bigdave) who used them on his S2 track car. They are from KW.

Before the stiffer springs were fitted I drove the car quite happily to the 'ring and Spa. I agree with Neil that it's probably the extra camber that makes it more "challenging" on the road now. It doesn't feel quite so planted on bumpy back roads as it used to.

 

[Masher]

Currently running Koni adjustable and i assume std ARB with poly bushes. For me, suspension would be the starting point of a track car but for some reason it appears to jave been overlooked in comparison to all the other work done. It was clearly too soft and the car leaned a lot in corners (as shown in the photos i saw of it on the day-none purchased). Having had Bilstein PSS 10 s transformy 964 good coilovers is the way i am inclined to go.
Thanks for all the thoughts
Mick

 

[Ex Skyline]

JMG are sorting out my suspension as we speak []. KW V3, Uprated 968 anti-roll bars, Porsche Motorsport Poly bushes through out, Laser Geo' set up etc [8D][8D]!! Getting him back next week and, I just can't wait! Why not give Jon a bell and have a chat with him? Or, you can always find him on the TIPEC forum. []

 

[edh]

a bit of lean is ok, but can be too much...

your car is always going to be a compromise - just have to decide where the balance lies. how harsh can you live with. .

check out exactly what you have under there - measure the arb diameter (biggest porsche ones are 30/19 mm f/r from the 968 m030 option)

do the front dampers have adjustable spring platforms? do the rear dampers have helper springs or do they just rely on the torsion bars?

the main challenge for 944's on track is getting a nice crisp turn in - needs a bit of trail braking I think. factory setup / geo will understeer.

 

[Masher]

ORIGINAL: Eldavo

I have KW Clubsport on mine. Amazing on swoopy smooth blacktop but rattles your fillings on the motorway.


If you're ever up this way I'll take you out in mine.

A really kind offer but sadly you're about 4 hours away and I don't get up your way with work.
Thanks all the same,
Mike

 

[Masher]

ORIGINAL: edh

a bit of lean is ok, but can be too much...

your car is always going to be a compromise - just have to decide where the balance lies. how harsh can you live with. .

check out exactly what you have under there - measure the arb diameter (biggest porsche ones are 30/19 mm f/r from the 968 m030 option)

do the front dampers have adjustable spring platforms? do the rear dampers have helper springs or do they just rely on the torsion bars?

the main challenge for 944's on track is getting a nice crisp turn in - needs a bit of trail braking I think. factory setup / geo will understeer.

The ARB's look a decent size (big) but I did not measure their diameter. I don't know what and adjustable spring platform is so cannot answer that. The rear dampers do rely solely on the torsion bar. This has had it's angle 'reset one spline to give a 2 inch drop in height'. A good thing or not?

I think we will meet on 20th May so you'll see it's handling and maybe we can have a chat.

I am interested in this idea of springs at the rear to assist the torsion bar... Is there an article somewhere to explain how this works? Is it a relatively low cost upgrade If full coil overs are looking a bit pricey for me at the moment?

Tanks again for all the advice from everyone,
Mick

 

[MarkK]

EMC are the place to go,you can do a 1000 miles a year(road miles) on GAZ and it's quite an inexpensive settup.I had very stiff springs on my 944 and I drove it to work and the gym,popped down to Brands hatch from Leicester in it aswell did a trackday and drove back,just a bit clangy.Their Settup will be good aswell.

 

[barks944]

I track a 951 with KW and stock geometry, I've got a few polybushes dotted about and it sits very flat on track indeed. Was running with two other 951's at brands hatch on 20th april and both had gaz setups with big poundage springs. I don't think there was a massive difference in the amount of body roll. They did complain about the bumps on the road on the way to the hotel though, which I didn't notice.

 

[edh]

Mick I reckon the best thing is to have a chat on the 20th. There should be lots of different setups there & will be interesting to compare.

adjustable spring platform means your front struts may be threaded to allow the plate the springs sit on to be wound up & down the body of the strut, altering ride height.

 

[Diver944]

The KW's are still the best compromise between road and track useage. The standard springs are relatively stiff but the clever bypass valve means it soaks up poor road surfaces much better than plain race shocks. However as an out and out track setup they are a bit soft.

If you are only doing road miles to get back and forth to many track days then in my experience you cannot beat the Gaz shocks from EMC. They know the best poundage and setup for a dedicated track car yet I drove MarkKs race car to Rutland a few years ago and it was still compliant enough for occasional road use.

 

[ChasR]

IIRC Kevin would recommend the Golds over his bespoke remote reservoir dampers (which are as many people say, highly regarded in the track circles) if you plan to do a good chunk of road driving.

After going in a couple of cars I would probably go for the Gaz Golds or KW V3s. The latter on my car (with the geo setup) really has surprised me with just how capable a 944 chassis is .

 

[Masher]

Looks like there are really four choices available. From the research I have done and the comments here (thanks all) it appears only KW and Gaz have developed anything more modern for the 944. The choices then seem to be:
Gaz gold standard kit
Gaz gold EMC set up
KW V3
KW club sport (anyone any experience of these?)

Road use will really be limited to driving too and from the track so maybe 1000 miles per year. Gaz kits are approx £900 and KW roughly double this. The general consensus seems to be that the KW V3 are a better road and track set up (not sure about the clubsport) whilst the Gaz seem to be every bit as good on track but some will regard them as harsh on the road.

Is the perceived wisdom to run the rear coil overs in conjunction with the torsion bars or is there a school of thought for removing the torsion bar? In the latter thought, I am wondering if there is any significant weight advantage and I am wondering what controls the side to side body movement over the axles ( those with more knowledge of 944s may think this is an irrelevant question but I am thinking coil overs manage up and down movement well but does the torsion bar prevent lateral movement of the body over the axles)

As ever, thoughts and comments based on experience are welcome. I plan to change the suspension just the once!
Cheers
Mick