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944 UK League 2007 update

eastendr

New member
944 UK League for 2007 update

http://www.cannell.co.uk/944%20UK%20League.htm

At this time, I won't be making any segregation between different engine capacities. Fen has pretty much summed up my thoughts about the UK 944 league table in another thread, but I'll expand on this a bit here.

I have therefore started a dedicated thread for 2007. I will also post this on titanic/944.

I devised my 944 UK League as a level playing field as all results come from the same Dynamometer, the lowest reading that we have yet found, the most consistent and most advanced. This dyno cell has the highest level accreditation from major fuel, motorsport companies and specialist car magazines.

The fact that this particular cell is capable of 1,200 WHP at each axle also means that we won't (!!) run out of capacity for any envisaged 944 modifications, up to and including huge turbocharged V8 conversions (or e-bay resistor mods!).

The dyno cell is at
Weltmeister
Units 41/42
Silverstone Grand Prix Circuit
Northampton
NN12 8TN

The consistency of this dyno is such that, as I have constantly repeated, I will accept graphs / data taken at any time, in any weather conditions when produced on the dyno cell at Weltmeister. I have an agreed format for the graphs that Chris Davies (Weltmeister technical director & dyno operator) is aware of. Chris is able to reprint these graphs for me at any time for scanning in high resolution, then the league table can be updated and the graphs posted under the individual car's registration number on my website.

This should allow, over time, an accurate picture to be built up of how modifications perform over time and before / after on the same car. I know that I have found this extremely useful in the development of WUF.

The graphs are as, if not more important than the headline (league table) figures as they accurately depict how that power / torque is developed and provide a good guide to drivability. They also allow detailed analysis and scrutiny of boost and AFR to determine how good the fuel mapping is and to sort out the rogue high-boost single runs (to obtain one-off peak figures) from sustainable everyday safe power delivery.

A proportion of owners won't necessarily understand some of the finer points of the graphs, but ready interpretations will be available from a number of those on the forums who are more experienced to attempt to explain them individually and provide an analysis as to possible inherent faults and suggestions for improvement.

The data table may evolve to contain more information eventually, as different areas of modication are addressed. For now, whenever I publish a graph, I will need as comprehensive a set of specifications / modifications as possible, at least enough to fill in the current table format.

As Fen has rightly stated, this is a level playing field and not designed to favour one vehicle / modification type / tuner over another. All 944's from standard LUX to full track car spec are included. The 944 LUX, S and S2 are no less important to this table than the turbo cars.

It is an attempt to provide a clear understanding of what modifications produce what results, individually and in combination. Good or bad. If something works well it is just as important to know as if something does not work well. Both types of modification exist!

All information is updated in good faith and results are unbiased, documented and tracable.

So that this remains a level playing field and an accurate comparison, I will ONLY accept graphs from Dyno Dynamics cell. I am aware that there are now a number of these in the UK and I am now starting to get results from DD cells in the USA so that we can start to provide graphs and specifications from around the world, even though the table is for a UK LEAGUE ONLY at this stage. I'm hoping that some of the USA based tuners will be contributing customers cars results from DD cells this year so we can compare properly. The preferred cell remains the Weltmeister cell at Silverstone.

I hope this clarifies the position.

Please don't take this thread off topic - It will make a good (sticky?) thread to follow results throughout what is promising to be a very interesting year!

Rick.
 
Just to clarify... is it just 944's?

Would a 924S make it onto the league as it is pretty much a 944 with narrow track?

Would a 968 make it onto the leage?

Its just I know there is a 968 3.0 turbo which would like to join in on dyno days, I also know of a 924 Carrera GT who would like to join in.

I know they are not strictly 944's, but they are of the same blood and would be a good comparative benchmark.

I know the league is of great value for being able to compare one mod versus another mod and I can appreciate the interest in analysis of the charts...

But I also think there are a large number of the people who are on the league table who enjoy it like a football leage or mild form of rivalry (Willy waving as Fen put it)... I know several of them that I talk to get a kick from managing to tweak their car and get a little bit higher on the league table, which is part of the driving force which pushes on development of new parts and improvement in the quest for power.

All said an done though... Rick started the league.. Rick maintains the league and Rick pays to host the league, so at the end of the day, its Rick's place to set the rules and those rules are to be respected as far as I stand.
 
While I agree that it is up to Rick I also think there should be some boundaries.

I mean, we could argue that a 928 engine qualifies as it is two 944 engines joined at the hip. - perhaps it would if the results were divided by two? [;)]

Perhaps Rick needs another two columns bhp and torque per CC.
 
I know that there are some cars that can effectively cross over between two groupings - 924S being the prime example.

I would be happy to expand to host leagues for other registers on my website (and have already discussed this with some of the registers concerned) so I hope that there will be some announcements shortly.

Currently my thoughts are that the 944 League is just that - for the 944 designated models only. If I do expand the hosted leagues, as I hope to, a 924S would be listed under the 924 section which would cover all 924 versions from 2.0 lux through to 924 GTS/GTR. Similarly 928 would cover 928 through to GTS versions.

The 911 presents a different approach as to league split and is far more complicated because of the generic term 911 covering everything from GT2/GT3 back down to early 2.7 etc.

Although this is the 944 forum and I won't go too off topic, my provisional thoughts are for 924 / 928 / 944 / 968 / 911 / 964 / 964RS / 993 / 996 / 997 / GT (2/3/RS) / Boxster / Cayman.

Obviously these other models are out of the scope of this part of the forum and are just to illustrate my thoughts at this time. Certainly hosting other leagues is not a problem, but lack of DD data and specification tables IS at this time. I'm hoping to see if we can correct this during the year as different registers book dyno shootout days.

John's idea of extrapolating the data to provide comparative figures is good. Things like BHP/TQ per cc would be easy to add to the table. Power/weight is also a very often quoted figure, but more difficult to add because of the lack of accurate vehicle weight data - we don't weigh the cars at the time of the dyno run and cannot accept manufacturers generic figures for this as there if far too much variation in vehicles weight over the years.

I don't see any point in creating inaccurate statistics - the whole point of using the weltmeister DD is that it is consistent and calibrated.

So to clarify Jon's questions. 968 won't make it in to the 944 league. 924S will go in to the 924 league. 924 Carrera GT (all versions) will go in to the 924 league. Peter Empsons 944Lux fitted with a 944S2 engine is in the 944 league.

A stripped out 944 racer with a big V8 should ideally go in to a 'hybrids' league which would host Porsche chassis fitted with engine configurations not offered as part of the standard production range (if that makes sense ?)

This gets more complicate with the prospect of a 944 fitted with a 968 engine which I think is generically the same engine (same straight 4 configuration) so could remain in the 944 league.

Air cooled is RIGHT OUT (Monty Python quote) [:D] [:D] [:D]

This is definately a PORSCHE because it says so on the rubber rear spoiler.



Discuss.
 
oooOOohh.... I like the BHP/LBS per CC or per 1000cc idea... Makes it seem much less like cheating having bigger engines in one table....

I also go along with the 944's only in the 944 table....

No chance of a 968 with a 3.0 944 turbo engine installed then? (well its almost like a 944)

 
ORIGINAL: Indi9xx
oooOOohh.... I like the BHP/LBS per CC or per 1000cc idea... Makes it seem much less like cheating having bigger engines in one table....

I also go along with the 944's only in the 944 table....

It's probably the best way of expressing engine efficiency so is a good guide to state of tune. We can produce any number of interesting statistics at the end of the day.

Several USA contributors have discussed trying to get some sort of 'area under the curve' type calculations as well, but there's no accepted industry standard that I know of and I don't think my league table attempts are important enough in the global scheme of things [;)]

No chance of a 968 with a 3.0 944 turbo engine installed then? (well its almost like a 944)

'fraid not - unless there's a consensus that it should be so [:(] (and I don't think the 968'ers would)

Do you think we should rank 'resistor' type mods but resistance value, or type of resistor coating ? ? ? [:D] [:D] [:D]
 
ORIGINAL: eastendr

We can produce any number of interesting statistics at the end of the day.

...there's no accepted industry standard that I know of

How about BHP per sticker?
Just a thought...[;)]
 
It's nice to see Rick's plea to keep this on topic worked - 6 relevant posts before it went off is pretty good for us (and it was me who took it off...). Feel free to clean up the nonsense, mods.
 
I would think that the 968 with the 944 turbo engine should be in the 944 table and not the 968 table. It seems fairer on the 968 n/a guys and it is the engine's performance that you're measuring, not the body?
Oh and by the way, great idea Rick and well done to all you lucky guys with such good facilities and tracks at hand...I'm just searching for the jealosy icon?
 
ORIGINAL: John Sims
It is a well known fact - "Vinyl makes Vroom"

Top man! Particularly if it's lightweight 'RS' spec [:D] [:D] [:D]

I'm going to produce some 944 UK League decals as well.

Maybe they'll eventually become as desirable as one of Allan's famous hats ?
 
Personally (and being the owner I am biased), I would like to think that my 968 3.0 turbo could be included as there are no other cars for me to compare against apart from the 9m SC cars. Being that my engine is very similar to Pauls only less capacity you guys are the only real cars that I would see myself compared against. The 968 was originally supposed to be a 944 S3 anyway, they only gave it a new number as a marketing boost. You only have to look at the part numbers to see they are all 944 and 951 codes. 90% of the parts I used to make it work are 944 turbo or 944 NA, including ditching the 16v head for an 8v, but of course in the end the decision rests with you lot. I am quite happy what ever you decide thats just my opinion.
 
Go on rick... let the 968 in... go on... be your best friend... let you share my crisps!

I know its a 944 league... and you have to draw a line... but otherwise Nick will end up playing on his own, as there isnt really any other 968 turbo's in the UK, the 968 community will not want them in the 968 league if you do one and seeing as its a 3.0 turbo in exactly the same way as the 944 3.0 turbo's are (it uses 944 turbo bits that we all use in here) and is executedit will still be a good comparison to see what works and does not work.

It also has a motec, so it would be interesting to compare it with a 3.0 non motec that uses something like a vitesse MAF etc.

 
What is the block and the head from Jon/Nick? If it's a 944 motor then it should be in the 944 league. If it's a turbo'd 968, then in their league. What if it's a 2.5L sleeved out to 3.0L with a 968 t/c head? Well it should be in the bastard league and I'm sure you'll find some more bastards to go with him. lol.[:D][:D][:D]
I've got a 2.5L out to 3.0L with a 3L crank guess I'm a bastard!.....but a lucky one just the same. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
What sakes you may that?? Hic...well actually I think my points were all salient ones and deserving the efforts of an equally considered response.
 
Lol 333, here goes....

Block was a new, bare 104mm (3.0) block, could for arguments sake be for an S2 or a 968 crank from the same cars, as used to make a 2.8 944 with 100mm block (2.5 block), same bore. Head is from an NA 944 2.7(8v not 16v as in 968). Intake and exhaust manifolds are from a 2.5 951 as is the intercooler and crossover pipe, downpipe and exhaust. Tappets, valve springs, cam and cam tower are all 951. From the engine back its all 968, bellhousing, startermotor, clutch assembly, flywheel, torque tube and gearbox. The only thing that would effect the dyno runs would be that it would be at a slightly different gear ratio being that all your weltmeister runs are done in 3rd and 6 speed would not quite match that in 3rd or 4th.

In the end I dont mind as everyone will get a look at my dyno runs and they will know what a 3.0 makes, you guys can decide what list you want to put it on. I know its going to top the 968 list so no worries there and I dont really see the supercharged 968's as competition, they are beat badly on torque and I would like to see one put out its results on the rollers of truth for a fair comparison.
 

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