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944 weight saving

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just a quick question to anyone listening, i own an 89 944 lux, i find it alot of fun, and am presently thinking about upgrading the chip engine etc, what would you advise to do for a decent performance upgrade, and also what can i take out for weight saving, obviously i dont want to take things like the rear seats, or spare wheel out, and owning an acura type r in the states, i know you can take out quite a bit of weight from things like sound deadening in the boot.
 
Well, you've ruled out the obvious weight savings already.

Personally I've removed from my Turbo:
rear seat (backrest, the base is just foam and weighs very little but goes a long way to keeping transmission noise out)
electric windows (replaced with manual 924 regulators)
electric mirrors (replaced with 968 CS manual ones)
front seats (replaced with one bucket so far)
rear wiper
electric hatch release
central locking
engine (but that's going back in)

I'd estimate getting on for 100kg from that lot

still to come:
air con
power steering
headlamp height adjustment
fog/driving lamps
spare wheel, compressor and tools
(possibly) sunroof
boot carpet (for track days at least)

 
Fen,
did you replace your PAS with a manual rack or remove the pump and reorder the plumbing of the existing rack!
andy
 
I haven't had a rear backrest for a while but it is easy to replace / remove 2 bolts,
Rear wiper and motor makes the hatch lighter and its easier to get 4 wheels tyres in the boot.
On trackdays the compressor / spare wheel / toolkit contents of rear well / glovebox. I have tken the rear (boot) carpet out but my gearbox sounds rough so I put it back.
Peter on Titanic (and sometimes here) has a plastic (lexan IIRC) hatch but I believe he had some issues with insurance and fitting.
Tony
 

ORIGINAL: racerhead

Fen,
did you replace your PAS with a manual rack or remove the pump and reorder the plumbing of the existing rack!
andy

I haven't done it yet but the plan is to replace it with the non-PAS system from an early Lux.
 
Hi Jonesworthy,

Welcome to the forum.

Don't forget that people can be quite heavy, especialy after Christmas, I recon I could save 10-15 kg in my car.

The Lux is a reasonably light and nibble car any way. You mention that you have an Acura in the States, are you posting from the States with a US spec Lux? If so, you could perhaps find a bit of a saving with UK style bumpers rather than the big American ones. I believe the American bumpers are also on spring loaded mountings which must be heavier than the UK non-sprung versions.

I have further pondered if there would be any weight saving in removing the under tray and replacing it with sheet aluminium.

Carbonfibre (material of the gods) is now available in sheet form, and could be used to replace door cards - It looks the nuts, but is still very expensive.

Do you need your door pockets, centre consol, glove box, passenger sun visor. What about those great big heavy wing mirrors, look in Demon Tweeks, they have some very light alternatives.

How about GRP front wings, and that PU boot spoiler isn't light, perhaps a GRP alternative could be worth looking at there.

Once everything has gone that doesn't make the car go faster then it is out with the tank cutter and put big holes in anything that doesn't realy need to be there. [:eek:]
 

ORIGINAL: Fen

Personally I've removed from my Turbo:

engine (but that's going back in)

I was going to award you an A+ for that lot, but you've blown it with that frivolous reinstatement.

B minus. Must try harder......
[:'(]
 
As previously mentioned, there is a lot of excess weight to be removed on these cars, provided that creature comforts are not super-important.

You Brits are already one step ahead of the USA contingent, in the fact that your front and rear bumpers on the Lux weigh far less than the front and rear bumpers on an equivalent MY89 car in the USA.

The biggest bang for your buck right away would be to replace those heavy stock seats with some racing-type bucket seats. I saved 74lbs when going from the full power seats to the Corbeau Forza seats. Next, if your car is equipped with A/C, you could putchase an A/C delete kit and rid yourself of nearly 42lbs worth of kit. The back seat and roller cover is good for around a 30lb loss. After that, the small things start adding up when you delete little bits like the Washer Fluid pump, system, reservoir, rear wiper system, cruise control, power windows locks and mirrors, etc.

A proper manual steering rack from an early lux (for which you will need the hard-to-find late-offset manual tie rods) will save you @24lbs and give you the proper steering ratio. I just recently did this and it is 10X better than running with a power rack with the pump disconnected/removed. If you are sourcing this part, do not forget to get the longer intermediate shaft that is needed for the manual unit, the power one is too short.

My car still has the stereo, and is a decently comfortable car to drive to and from racing/driving events, and weighs right at 2500lbs (with the spare tire and tool kit removed from the boot, and 1/2 tank of gas).

Beware: Lightening your car can be a sickness! [:-] I have a friend with a 911SC who has went overboard and has removed every bit of interior, including the dash, heater, headliner, etc. All that is left is one seat, pedals, shifter, and a steering wheel.
 
I am thinking of adding weight to my boot to stop the wheels spinning!

I might have the wrong box which will not help matters.
 
Thanks to everyone for replying so fast lol, 1 day and many ideas,
i think first of all i need to do the usual intake, exhaust chip idea, my local service station that dealt with my car b4 i bought it said i have a performance throttle body, so these 4 should be pretty nice working together, then i need to decide what comforts i can do without?? its a hard choice for me as i do enjoy most of the comforts.

Also on a completely random note, does anyone know where i can get replacement mats and rear cover, i have the blue interior on my 89 944.

Another random note is that i now want to purchase my second porsche, and i am probably looking into a 968, maybe a late turbo 44, then again i could go the 911 route, hmmm decision huh, but choosing a porsche is a decision i enjoy lol.

take care all, thanks for the feedback.

Jonesworthy.....
 
An impressive set of posts, not seen on too many sites these days.

I have always been a great believer in the view that the most economic way of enhancing performance was "to add lightness".

Ripping out the declared unessentail can become an obssession, so beware. Take notes on what you remove, from where and how you did it.......2/3 years down the road it might be a help.

andy
 
tif,
so where did you get the tie rods from then! do you have parts nos, what model uses them.
I have a 924 rack which i presume does not track wide enough for the S2! Can the power rack be canabalised!

I also know of one racecar that has a converted PAS rack (Opump removed so manual now) but i donot have any detail on the plumbing exercise required to block off and loop the fluid pipes, any ideas!

andy
07749 964 993
 
ORIGINAL: jonesworthy
Another random note is that i now want to purchase my second porsche, and i am probably looking into a 968, maybe a late turbo 44, then again i could go the 911 route, hmmm decision huh, but choosing a porsche is a decision i enjoy lol.

Nothing wrong with a 911 (seriously and play nice the rest of you...) but I honestly don't see the point in paying a hige premium to buy a 968 when you could get a 944S2 for so much less. Despite Porsche's claims at the time they are the same car in 95% of the bits that matter and most of them are wear items that can be replaced with new on an S2 for far less than the cost differential.

On the PAS question my fettler said I'd need new track rods (I must admit I thought principally because the old ones would have wear where they join the rack) but he also thinks the crossmember is different where the rack mounts. He has a customer with a non-PAS early car that wants to swap parts but I need to confirm the crossmember in that has exactly the same dimensions for wishbone mounting before we go ahead.

Remember Jeremy that RHD cars have different crossmembers to US ones, but do you know if US conversions need a swap and if so, do alloy wishbones fit crossmembers intended for cars with pressed steel wishbones?

Taking the pump off the assisted system sounds like it would be very heavy, or is that just because you have to push fluid through the pump when it's still there but not working? The assisted rack is probably quicker and equally not quick enough so I am slightly concerned about the non-PAS rack adding feel but losing "quickness". i wonder if the best (cost no object I suspect) methid would be to convert the PAS rack internally to be a quicker non-assisted rack?
 
ORIGINAL: Fen


On the PAS question my fettler said I'd need new track rods (I must admit I thought principally because the old ones would have wear where they join the rack) but he also thinks the crossmember is different where the rack mounts. He has a customer with a non-PAS early car that wants to swap parts but I need to confirm the crossmember in that has exactly the same dimensions for wishbone mounting before we go ahead.

Remember Jeremy that RHD cars have different crossmembers to US ones, but do you know if US conversions need a swap and if so, do alloy wishbones fit crossmembers intended for cars with pressed steel wishbones?

Taking the pump off the assisted system sounds like it would be very heavy, or is that just because you have to push fluid through the pump when it's still there but not working? The assisted rack is probably quicker and equally not quick enough so I am slightly concerned about the non-PAS rack adding feel but losing "quickness". i wonder if the best (cost no object I suspect) methid would be to convert the PAS rack internally to be a quicker non-assisted rack?
Fen I would have thought that without the power assistance the steering would be way too heavy. I dont think the resistance is due to pushing the fluid, its the gearing of the rack. As you change your suspention geometery more for the track and maybe add trck tyres or slick that again will add weight to the steering. Probbly to the point where non-PAS would be simply too heavy

I dont know how much weight you woul dsave removing the PAS, say 20kgs tops. IMO its not worth the saving. The PAS steering still has alot of feel, and you get the added bonus of a quicker rack with it.

I know where you could find those 20kgs weight loss too. [;)] and alot cheaper to achieve.[:D]
 
tif,
so where did you get the tie rods from then! do you have parts nos, what model uses them.
I have a 924 rack which i presume does not track wide enough for the S2! Can the power rack be canabalised!

I also know of one racecar that has a converted PAS rack (Opump removed so manual now) but i donot have any detail on the plumbing exercise required to block off and loop the fluid pipes, any ideas!

The late-offset tie rods have factory part#'s, I don't have the PET program on this laptop at the moment but I could look it up for you at home over the weekend. I know that there none available in the US, but there is good stock in europe. That means your local OPC will have an easier time of ordering them and getting them in somewhat reasonable time. The tie rod inners and outers are different than a power rack, so those parts cannot be cannabalized. Sorry!

My car is an 85.5 model, so it has "early" offset and therfor can use the early tie rod assemblies that are more readily available. www.paragon-products.com has them in stock for my car.

As far as blocking off the pipes on the power steering unit, just remove all of the piping, pump, cooler, reservoir, etc. The fluid hoses connect to the rack at two points with "banjo" bolts. Simply source some regular bolts with the same thread (I can't recall the thread, but I know they are fairly large) and plug the holes. Be certain to leave fluid in the rack as the power rack needs this for lubrication. But, as I stated earlier, this is the crap way of doing it. A power rack, without the proper ratio as found in a manual rack, is crap to drive and very much un-desirable.

On the PAS question my fettler said I'd need new track rods (I must admit I thought principally because the old ones would have wear where they join the rack) but he also thinks the crossmember is different where the rack mounts. He has a customer with a non-PAS early car that wants to swap parts but I need to confirm the crossmember in that has exactly the same dimensions for wishbone mounting before we go ahead.

Remember Jeremy that RHD cars have different crossmembers to US ones, but do you know if US conversions need a swap and if so, do alloy wishbones fit crossmembers intended for cars with pressed steel wishbones?

Taking the pump off the assisted system sounds like it would be very heavy, or is that just because you have to push fluid through the pump when it's still there but not working? The assisted rack is probably quicker and equally not quick enough so I am slightly concerned about the non-PAS rack adding feel but losing "quickness". i wonder if the best (cost no object I suspect) methid would be to convert the PAS rack internally to be a quicker non-assisted rack?

I realize that RHD cars have different cross-members than LHD cars. That being said, if you source a manual rack for a RHD car, it should bolt to it. There should be no need for a new crossmember. On LHD cars, for example, it is a straigt swap. The mounts are exactly the same and you can even re-use the bolts that mount the power rack to the crossmember provided they are in proper shape. As a practice, I do like to clean up all bolts before re-using and chase the threads on the bolt and the hole.

The rack and pinion gear ratio on the manual rack is easier than the rack and pinion ratio on the power rack (to accomodate the lack of power assistance). Think of the gears on a push-bike. The easier the gearing is, the less work you need to put into pedalling. However, you most rotate the pedals more to go the same distance as you would with a harder gear. This means that on a manual rack, the wheel takes about 3/4 more turn to full lock than the power rack. In driving, you will notice that you need to "turn into" a corner more with the manual rack. I hope that description/analogy makes sense.

One could swap the guts from a manual rack to a power rack, but......at that point, it would be easier to just install the proper rack, me thinks. [:D]
 

ORIGINAL: slim_boy_fat



I dont know how much weight you woul dsave removing the PAS, say 20kgs tops. IMO its not worth the saving. The PAS steering still has alot of feel, and you get the added bonus of a quicker rack with it.

I know where you could find those 20kgs weight loss too. [;)] and alot cheaper to achieve.[:D]

It's approx 24lbs, whatever that converts to in kilos...........

I did the conversion because l like the feel much more (I was able to drive a 951Cup car first to see what it was like before I made the decision to do the swap), and wanted to rid the engine bay of non-needed items. The lost weight was a bonus![:)]

Once you spend some time with a proper manual rack, you really don't miss the assisted rack.
 
Some good input above. Food for thought.

I didn't realise the ratios differed, makes sense. But less idea for the track.

Does anyone know of any LHD racks available in the uk?

At speed on the track any heaviness in a de assisted rack will disappear. It is amazing how light the steering becomes when your belting along.

Re The weight, it makes a bigger difference than you think. On the S2 it is a bit of a challenge getting the car down to race weight limit without canabalising body panels to remove metal. And significantly the weight is being removed from the front of the car.

Having looked at the parts manual, the rods & rod ends are the same for man and PAS. So I guess rod length is the issue if the manual rack came from a 924!

andy
 

ORIGINAL: slim_boy_fat
Fen I would have thought that without the power assistance the steering would be way too heavy. I dont think the resistance is due to pushing the fluid, its the gearing of the rack. As you change your suspention geometery more for the track and maybe add trck tyres or slick that again will add weight to the steering. Probbly to the point where non-PAS would be simply too heavy

I dont know how much weight you woul dsave removing the PAS, say 20kgs tops. IMO its not worth the saving. The PAS steering still has alot of feel, and you get the added bonus of a quicker rack with it.

I know where you could find those 20kgs weight loss too. [;)] and alot cheaper to achieve.[:D]

I got the idea from Rennlist. I further got to like it because of reports of hugely increased feel. As you hint I'm not a small bloke and I think I can cope with a bit of effort to park and as Andy says at speed the steering will lighten up. I am slightly concerned about it being slower though as even the PAS rack is a problem to wind lock on quickly enough undercertain circumstances. I'm not overly worried though as the only time I have seen that was at the Haynes test track where one particular right/left section was fun if taken full sideways with a "Scandinavian flick" in between but getting from lock to lock the rack wasn't as quick as the back end of the car. If truth be told I was more interested in creating tyre smoke and pleasing the limited audience than getting around quickly [8D].

I'm surprised the guy who looks after my car thinks the non PAS rack will not fit the PAS crossmember though, unless of course that is true. Maybe I'll get around to phoning Simon Butterworth this week to see what he thinks.
 

Having looked at the parts manual, the rods & rod ends are the same for man and PAS. So I guess rod length is the issue if the manual rack came from a 924!

andy

That's strange. My PET program shows that they are different, at least on LHD. When I did this conversion recently and had the manual bits on the workbench next to the power bits, I can tell you they are different. The threads are different.
 

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