964 advice

[sawood12]

I'm 13 months into Porsche ownership with my 944 Turbo and am chuffed to bits with the car, I'm so chuffed that i'm already starting to plan my next purchase as my original plan of owning a Porsche for a few years to get it out of my system has failed and instead I find myself unable to imagine driving anything else!

I fancy a 964 but have heard lots of horror stories about them being plagued with problems as they were the first Porche to include alot of the more modern features you expect with cars these days. Is there any truth behind these stories? or was it something the early cars suffered and subsequently fixed?

Also what model is a good one to go for? I would like something at least as quick as my 944 Turbo but a 964 turbo would be out of my price range I guess (my price range would be £15k to £20k).

Thanks.

 

[Guest]

Hi Scot,

You sound like me 4 weeks ago![] I like you had purchased a 944S some months previous and had and still am enjoying driving it but..........it's not a 911 is it. So like you I decided to go for the second purchase, having looked at 993's that were shall we say out of my price range[] (£23,995) I decided to look for a 964 tiptronic and once again like you came upon all the horror stories. Like all cars of this age there will be problems but my advice to you is to get a good inspection done prior to parting with any money. Already being a porsche owner you are ahead of most people with regards to what you no i.e full service history, no smoke on start up handles well, brakes in a straight line etc along with visual condition. My inspection was £250.00 and was carried out by an ex-porsche engineer it took him 2 hours but he jacked it up checked underneath front & rear, along with checking the oil cooler, brakes,ball joints,engine etc and he took it for a test drive at high speed to check oil pressure & temp. All in all it was worth the money and I paid £12,500 for mine with 115,000 miles excellent condition & full porsche history, however mine does leak a few drops of oil like they all do despite what people say. So in simple terms use the knowledge you have and this forum to ask questions get an inspection done and keep around £600.00 back for the 12,000 mile service. Trust me they are lovely to drive and turn heads believe me especially in red like mine. One other thing if its manual check for flywheel replacement & clutch renewal and go to this site http://www.porsche964.co.uk/.

Hope this helps

Pete[]
------------------------
1991 964 Tip Guards Red

 

[Philw]

Scott,

For what it is worth I have also recently moved from water to air within the Porsche family ! I sold my 968 after 2 years of trouble free and fantastic motoring simply as I had a 911 itch to scratch [] I have previously owned a 944 turbo and a 3.2 Carrera so knew what I was getting into! However, like you I was rocked by the horror stories from people supposedly in the know about 964's. However I started to see that there were also many owners of 964's who didn't have these problems and in fact the "golden rules" about early cars bad, later cars good and low miles good high miles bad were in fact not black and white......I also found the search to be extremely dispiriting in that I spoke to owners who clearly cared little for their 964's and viewed a number that slipped through the initial filtering that were also a dissapointment due to being inaccurately described.... things like owners who described a PHI clear check which turned out to be a sign off from the Cat D register by the PHI appointed vehicles inspectors..... not "quite" the same thing. I also made mistakes by sticking too rigidly to my budget and losing a cple of good cars before I realised how much could be spent on R&M on a car which may initially appear a better buy. The 911 is very different to the 951 and you really need to drive more than you anticpate to appreciate how different they all are. I decided in the end to buy a '92 MY C4 targa (which incidentally I had inspected and passed on earlier in my search but which came back due to a re-think by both the seller and I on price and work required), and so far I am thrilled with it. You will find the comparison on performance is closer than many think (if you have a 250bhp 951 that is) but the 911 noise and experience is unique. Best advice I can give as a relative newbie is talk to the owners on these kind of forums as they are the best source of honest straight advice...... Good luck. If there is anything I can do to assist having recently been in the market please let me know.

Phil

 

[vitesse]

Scott,all this worry about 964's,IMHO you can know too much.We have had a 924,then 924S since 1988/9 and then my wife decided she would like to drive a 911.Our son had been to Hanley Porsche,thought they wereOK so we went there,aweek later we missed a911SC by 5minutes.Steve,the owner said he would get us a car to our wants,so Guards red,manual,around 60k miles and £22k budget.A week later one appears(the one we now have),we gave it the once over and agreed to buy it subject to everything his mechanic found on closely examining it.We did have an unaccompanied test drive and "thrashed it " along the A500,then tootled back.
It had a full Porsche history at that point,clearly had been used as a day to day car but sounded "right" but had an oil drip.It needed 2 rack gaiters,the long oil pipe"to the Stat",a rear tyre and 1 loose door mirror.They gave it a full 12K service,new MOT.did the list.I took it back to have the new tyre changed for one to match the opposite side.
Since then it has done 24K miles,is used nearly everyday,been to Le Mans.IoM but no trackdaysIn nearly 4.5 years it has had 2 12K services(we supply the official Porsche kit and Mobil 1 from Costco) at Unit 11 Porsche,an independant in Warrington,cost £725(total inc Gearbox oil&Disi belt,rotor arm&cap change this last service) and I have fitted an operating arm to the passenger door lock,windscreen washer pump,rubber drain valves to the spare wheel compartment and new plastic trim to the valances,also replaced the missing undertray bolts,costs around £100.
It uses little oil is totally reliable and a joy to drive,my wife loves it.
I managed to speak to the previous owner,he is an Architect with a history of owning and driving Porsches,it was used as his daily driver,on & off sites,a mobile office, etc.
So get one that has been in use all the time and doesn't stand in a garage over winter and from an enthusiast.

 

[964rh]

Scott

As all of the above.
When I was looking for a 964 all of the horror stories came out and yes there are dogs out there. Keep looking and you'll find a peach, pay for a PPI and go for it.

If you want to have a look at mine for research purposes I only live down the road from you (Loughborough, Leics), I'd be more than happy to take you through my experiences of buying and owning a 964 over a pint of shandy sometime and take you for a drive. PM if you feel like it.

Regards + good luck

Rob

 

[sawood12]

Thanks for advice. Sounds like the usual Porsche buyers rules apply: look for comprehensive or full service and repair history, get the usual HPI/engineer checks and buy on condition. I believe I should also look out for clutches and dual mass flywheel issues on cars around 100k miles.

What models did they produce? was it the usual C2, C4, C2S, C4S models as well as the RS's, cabrio's and Turbo's? Do any of these come in a widebody version? There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of detail specifically on the 964 in the mags I have read recently so I am struggling to understand the model line-up.

Cheers again.

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

Scott,

I can't give you a complete answer since I don't have some of the detailed stuff to hand but basically it goes like this:

1989 (Model Year) C4 Coupe only Manual gearbox only.
1990 C2 Coupe/Targa/Cab in Tip or Manual and C4 Coupe/Targa/Cab in manual only
1991 as above for 1990
1992 as above for 1991 + RS + Turbo bodied C2 cab + Turbo, Turbo S and Turbo S2
1993 as above for 1992 + RS3.8 + C4 Anniversary + Turbo 3.6 + Speedster
1994 as above for 1992 + Turbo 3.6 Flachbau

There never was a 964 version called a C2S or C4S.

There are numerous combinations which were available for limited times - such as the Tiptronic C2 cab and Targa. There were also a number of turbo bodied coupes shipped mainly to the US in 1994 as a sweetener to the dealers in preparation for the release of the 993. Turbo bodied coupes are quite rare - Anniversary model excepted - most on the market are aftermarket conversions (like mine).

I'm sure others may point out some of my inaccuracies.

Regards

Dave

Acknowledgements to Adrian Streather for much of the information in Porsche 911 - An Enthusiasts Companion.

 

[964rh]

Scott

On nearly every car I looked at, the 964 achilles heal (dmf) had been replaced for either the new style dual mass, 1989 flywheel or RS.

A lot of the cars I shortlisted had also had a top end rebuild carried out.

My car has done 127000k now, with a engine rebuild at 102000k. (I bought it at 114000k) No oil has dropped on my drive.

Rob

 

[vitesse]

One thing I forgot to add to my ongoing repairs list;I replaced a rear wheel bearing(details in a previous post some weeks ago) total cost the way I did it ,approx£300.Wouldn't want to deceive anybody.Incidentally,initially I put the noise down to the rear tyre and the tyre pressure,there was no discernable play in the the bearing,.Worth checking any such noises.

 

[Martin Perry]

Scott

A few comparative words on power, speed etc.

I've owned a 204 bhp SC, a G50 3.2 and currently a C4 964. The C4 is noticably quicker than the other two, and should be a match for a 944 Turbo. It is quick enough to keep up with quite a bit of stuff on the track (e.g. stock Elises, 308/328 Ferraris), and feels quick in comparison to modern cars whereas the 3.2 & SC felt quick but in an 'in their day' sort of way.

I reckon it would be a good match for a 944 T, probably getting more power down in a straight line but losing a bit in bends against the 944's balance.

Also the best design 911 IMHO! Classic shape but with modern lines.

For £20k you should be able to get a very well sorted C2 or C4 coupe. Look out for cars which have had a top-end re-build after £80k or so, and done at one of the recognised specialists. These can represent a good buy becuase the cost of the work, typically £5k, is usually less the the premium you pay over a car that hasn't had that work done, and it should mean that all the 'nasties' have been looked at.

Good luck

 

[kevin]

All of this errant b0tox regarding top end rebuilds, Buy on condition, mileage aside, if it looks good, the PPI says its good, and if you like a compression test and leakdown, then if it all turns out ok, buy it.
There are many cars that have 150k+ on them, that don't leak much, have not had top end rebuilds and still pull like trains, I do wish this myth would just disappear....

My own has 101k on it, has a degree of moisture around some parts, does not leak oil on the garage floor, pulls like a train, averaged 27mpg back from Le mans used 1/4 Litre of oil in 800miles, has had the clutch replaced, and that's about it.

So don't be put off by not having this done, evaluate the condition, examine reciepts if it looks as though someone has cared for it, then they probably have, top end rebuild on a dog, is still a dog.

Rant ends.

Kevin

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

A point very well made Kevin. I've just got back from Weltweister's dyno day this afternoon having registered my 16 year old C4 at 243.1 bhp. Considering that it's done 118,000 miles and only had a clutch/flywheel change I reckon that's not bad. Like your's, Kevin, mine pulls like a train, can hit 150mph very easily and certainly doesn't seem to be crying out for a rebuild - top end or otherwise.

I'm sure if you were after the ultimate track day machine a few thousand spent on a rebuild would probably buy you a few extra bhp - and, perhaps, some longer term reliability - but for a "fun" car, mine suits me perfectly.

Regards


Dave

 

[Martin Perry]

Well that's told me then

 

[Guest]

I sold a very tidy 944T to buy my current 964C2. It's an interesting comparison between the two and it took me quite a while to decide. The biggest factor in my decision was that the 944 was brilliant but it wasn't a 911! I still miss the practical aspects of the 944 but the 911 magic wins me over every time.
I've done Track Days in both and enjoyed them both immensely. The 944 was probably easier to drive on the limit and only very slightly slower. However, the 944 was definitely quicker through the bends (in my hands anyway). The 964 has more grunt in the lower rev range and obviously doesn't suffer from any Lag like the 944 did! My 964 has only minor modifications but seems to have more power than I ever expected. I reached a ludicrous indicated top speed at Bruntingthorpe for the GT Magazine shoot. []
I looked at a few 964's and did quite a lot of research before taking the plunge. I chose a car with the DMF already changed and one with a FSH. All the cars I looked at were showing signs of oil-dampness underneath but I had a compression/leak-down test carried out to satisfy any doubts.
I wish you luck in your search!

Regards

Steve

 

[Guest]

Scott

I have a K reg. 1993 C2 for sale and it is in excellent condition with 72,000.

If your interested I can send some details and pics.

Regards

Ken

 

[sawood12]

Ken, thanks for the offer but I'm not quite ready to take the plunge just yet, I'm just in the early stages of starting to think about my next Porsche. I'll probably start actively searching in about 12 months time, however after spending the last few weeks reading up on 964's and looking through the 964 forum I'm starting to feel a bit of impatience welling up. I knew it was a mistake to start planning so early!! The problem is as much as I love my 944 I have a major 911 itch to scratch and i've decided the 964 is the tool to scratch it with. The ideal scenario would be to run both because I do have a major soft spot for the 944 too but that's not an option unfortunately as the missus has got her heart set on a Mini and not my 944. Who said marriage was all about compromise?!