964RS - Best Car for the Ring!

[SimonExtreme]

The (964) RS feels more at home on the Nordschleife than any car I've ever driven here. Normally you come away from the place fully versed in you car's dynamic weaknesses, but the RS shines brighter than I dared hope, with the perfect blend of poke, poise and lap-long pace.

Even a 400bhp 996 GT3 RS has to think twice before trying to out-drag us into the scary kink under the bridge, which amuses me no end.

Of course, the writer of those words is biased because he has already spent his hard earned cash on a 964RS, but given the cars he has driven and the choice of cars he could own, it speaks volumes. In addition, the fact he is almost critical about how the car was at Cadwell shows he isn't looking at the car totally through rose tinted specs.

No wonder Paul can't keep his stock for very long. I guess we can all look forward to riding that upward escalator of capital appreciation and wave at those on the downward one.......[][]

(for those who don't know, the words are by Richard Meaden and are published in Evo)

 

[gordon]

Dream dream dream !!!!!![][][]

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: gordon

Dream dream dream !!!!!![][][]

Gordon

There's no need to dream. I am sure you wouldn't have to add too much money if you chopped your current car for the "real thing" []

 

[clubsport]

I always found the more compliant suspension of my 3.2CS made it easier to drive at the ring and quicker than my mates 64 RS at the time.

To me the 64RS is spot on where the track surface is smooth and less bumpy, still makes a nice article []

 

[carreraboy]

Have to agree with Paul, Clubsport the 993RS far more compliant on the rough Ring surface.........but the 64RS has it's very very own Magic.....

Yes Mr Extreme 993/964RS prices are certainly on the way up in line with East ...London Property[]

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

Have to agree with Paul, Clubsport the 993RS far more compliant on the rough Ring surface.........but the 64RS has it's very very own Magic....

Sorry, guys, but this whole "compliant" thing is just BS. Yes, the 993RS suspension is more compliant and the ring is bumpy, but of you were going to race a standard 964RS at the ring, you would make the suspension stiffer, not "more compliant".

I find it really tiresome this whole issue about the 964RS suspension and also the whole "not an everyday car" thing. To quote Meaden (again)

I am really glad I am in the Porsche, which is proving a hospitable long-distance partner, better than my old Exige in fact, despite the rock-hard ride.

I think the man has driven more than enough cars to make a judgement and if he thought the car was flawed, as some of you claim, I am sure he would say so. If the "rock-hard" suspension was an issue, he would say so.

The problem is that most people use inappropriate cars as their base point. Meaden uses the Exige, a car you don't hear is "unsuitable" as a road car. As I keep saying, compared with Evo's, Integra Type R's and many other modern sports/performance cars, a 964RS is a very acceptable car for everyday use. And better still, once you get on the track, it's fantastic. But make no mistake. If you were racing, there isn't a track that you wouldn't use higher spring rates on and make the suspension even less compliant. [] Thank heavens I now have an ally in Mr Meaden []

(Rant mode off [][])

 

[oceancarrera]

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme

I find it really tiresome this whole issue about the 964RS suspension and also the whole "not an everyday car" thing. To quote Meaden (again)

I am really glad I am in the Porsche, which is proving a hospitable long-distance partner, better than my old Exige in fact, despite the rock-hard ride.

I think the man has driven more than enough cars to make a judgement and if he thought the car was flawed, as some of you claim, I am sure he would say so. If the "rock-hard" suspension was an issue, he would say so.

The problem is that most people use inappropriate cars as their base point. Meaden uses the Exige, a car you don't hear is "unsuitable" as a road car.

Just to discuss Meaden's comments in comparison with the Exige: I read it a slightly different way - that when he says:

ORIGINAL: Meaden
I am really glad I am in the Porsche, which is proving a hospitable long-distance partner, better than my old Exige in fact, despite the rock-hard ride.

Meaden is saying that the "rock-hard" suspension is an issue - otherwise why mention it at all?

And that in terms of a "long-distance partner", I'm sure the airiness of the 964 cabin is a far better place to be than the cramped quarters of the Exige.

But in no doubt, he mentions the suspension using less-than-kind words... the 64RS suspension is what it is. Rock hard.

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme

but of you were going to race a standard 964RS at the ring, you would make the suspension stiffer, not "more compliant".

And on the issue of driving the 'Ring, you DON'T want rock-hard suspension at the 'Ring. You need a level of compliancy to absorb the bumps... that's why 'Ring setups typically demand more compression/rebound/suspension travel than Hockenheim/smooth track setups, and 'Ring settings have anti-roll bars set to full stiff which is not necessarily what is wanted on a smoother circuit.

 

[clubsport]

I was referring to my old 1989 911 Carrera 3.2 Clubsport.....not 993 Clubsport as I haven't driven that at the ring.

You would certinly need to set the 964RS suspension up with enough travel, rather than the usual lowered UK trackday settings.........sure Meaden has driven enough cars.....I am only remarking on the difference we found comparing the 2 cars on the same day on the same bumpy Nordschliefe []

 

[jason]

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme

a 964RS is a very acceptable car for everyday use.

Well I disagree.

 

[SimonExtreme]

Each to their own. I guess nobody will agree on these issues. It's very black and white for most.

The only comments I would make are that

1. even the softest set race suspension is firmer than the 964RS standard suspension.
2. I totally agree with Adrien with his comments about the differences you need for different circuits. It's just the starting point we are disagreeing on!
3. Whether a car is acceptable as everyday transport is a personal thing and depends on what you are comparing the car with.

Strangely, while Adrien says the mention of the "rock-hard" suspension suggests an issue, I read it as implying that it is not an issue - i.e. the car has rock hard suspension but that doesn't stop it from being a "hospitable long-distance partner". Why does the term "rock hard" suggest a negative. In a performance track orientated car, I see that as a positive! The opposite is is soft, which surely is something that nobody wants. If Meaden wanted to use negatives to describe the suspension, I would expect to see words like "uncompromising". He doesn't even complain about needing new fillings []

As I say, each to their own. If we all liked the same things in a car, there would only be one model! Every car is a compromise in some way and as we all have our priorities, we all have a different set of values. That doesn't make one right or wrong, but at least Meaden is doing his bit to help speed the upward price pressure []

 

[clubsport]

Meaden is talking his own book just like yourself, just because a journlist makes a comment on a car means very little.
In fact if I disagree with him through my own experience, it makes such a reccomendation less valid, certainly in my eyes.
I suspect after having to test so many of the so called sporty cars of the modern day with their air bags, traction controls and other fripperies, Mr Meaden is just blown away now that he gets to drive a proper car []

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: clubsport
Meaden is talking his own book just like yourself, just because a journlist makes a comment on a car means very little.

True, but he chose to spend his own money on the car. Look at what else he could have bought for the same money or got "on the company". I wonder how many cars he drove last year, over the last 5 or even during his career. Yet, he bought a 964RS. Most of us choose cars based on a small number of cars we have driven. I always find it very illuminating to know what the journos buy for their own use.

Meaden is clearly "talking his own book" but would the story have been any less interesting if he had said great trackday car, useless on the road? Most people would have said that was predictable. That is why I feel his views are particularly interesting. Based on having driven a lot more cars than most of us, I find his views illuminating!

 

[jimmyslr]

Bear in mind what Dickie has had before, lot's of Caterhams and the like. So, we conclude he likes a car that handles well, with feelsome steering etc and he is used to hardship. To go from there to an RS is actually a well trodden route (me and a load others I have come to realise). While you get much of the tactility in a RS, it is a luxo transport option compared to a Caterham! I have driven to Spa and the Ring in pouring rain with an aeroscreened Caterham for company; when I did it in my RS life seemed somehow sweeter[].

Top article and great to see RS getting good press. I always think the same when I see articles on any car I own/owned; it just demonstrates what excellent taste I have[].

 

[paul howells]

Simon why do you believe all that is written,by journos.
Compliant does not always mean to be stiffer.
I was down at the oldtimer this summer,pissing down with rain,2 very compliant 911 st were in the top 3,and kicked ass over alot of so called proper race cars that were clearly stiff and struggling.
I have just set my car for the ring next week,likely to be damp and cold.Have raised the car 10mm,and removed some camber allround.Still as stiff but more compliant.

 

[SimonExtreme]

Jimmy
What you have showed is that people's perceptions of a car are based on their past experiences. My brother races Caterhams and thinks the RS is luxury compared with the Caterham and with his previous Caterham, he averaged 18,000 miles a year for 2.5 years. Now that is mad! Compared to my Evo, the RS is simply a nicer car to drive on a daily basis.

I do, however, conceed, that if you come from a BMW saloon, the RS might seem a touch......................hardcore!

Paul

Of coures I don't believe Journos but without Meaden's comments, I couldn't wind up so many people. After all the politics on the forum, I thought it would be good to get back to some good old car banter.

I have to slightly disagree with you about "compliant", while at the same time agreeing!!!! The way you use the word "compliant" I totally agree. You can have more compliant suspension and the same stiffness. The problem is, that in most cases, the basic spring rate is what people are complaining about. For 90% of road driving, it doesn't matter what shocks you use, the spring rates are going to determine comfort factors. I might be wrong, but the "more compliant" feel that most people crave for road use is really softer springs (combined with different shocks).

I would still argue that if you were racing my 964RS at the Ring, you would make changes to the suspension which would mean that you would end up with a car that was more compromised for road use than the standard car.

 

[clubsport]

Simon, most 964RS in the UK have some degree of track bias, thee cars with quite severe settings are fantastic on a smooth track surface. If you set a car up specifically for the ring, I would expect it to make a better road car.
Have you been to the ring? It is like a choppy UK B road in places, very different from somewhere like Silverstone.

 

[tim court]

Simon,
I was going to offer you a spade to dig yourself out but I guess you would only go deeper. You go from displaying acute NSS

people's perceptions of a car are based on their past experiences

to utter b0ll0x

For 90% of road driving, it doesn't matter what shocks you use, the spring rates are going to determine comfort factors

Still, I do agree it's waaaay better than the 'political' cr@p on here of late[][][]

 

[tim court]

Sorry... NSS??

No Sh!t Sherlock

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: clubsport
Simon, most 964RS in the UK have some degree of track bias, thee cars with quite severe settings are fantastic on a smooth track surface.

I thought most 64RS's in the UK were running standard suspension

If you set a car up specifically for the ring, I would expect it to make a better road car.
Have you been to the ring? It is like a choppy UK B road in places, very different from somewhere like Silverstone.

Yes, I have been to the Ring. I accept that it doesn't have the surface of Silverstone. However, I still insist that if you were settingup a 964RS for RACING at the Ring, you would go for stiffer suspension. The bodyroll on a standard car is totally unacceptable for a race situation and if you ask Mel, the standard car wallows compared with a cup car.

In addition, if you were building the car for racing, you would probably be using stiffer or solid bushes and even if the spring rates were lower, the car would be a lot less pleasant on the road.

There is a world of difference between the way you set up a car for fast road and race. Race cars are almost always significantly more edgy and as a generalisation, the faster the set up, the more edgy the car is. This is what seperates the top drivers from the rest of us mortals. Most people would be slower around the Ring with full race settings but a good racer will be able to handle it and get a better time out of the car.

 

[paul howells]

The ring setting for my car,will make the car far more compliant for the road,especially the cold winter days.The use of stiffer bushes etc,is not about compramising road manners,its about generating more grip with the geometry staying more or less where it was set,rather than flexing to all angles.
I bet i would cane melvs cup around the ring in a standard 64rs,i did race a 993 cup car for 3 years, useless on the ring,and awsome at spa.
Another example was my gt2 road car with uprated road chassis,stiffer springs etc than John Chester gt2 with ring suspnesion.My car was almost undrivable over 150mph,Johns was planted to flat out.
Paul Maclean came out in my 993rs at silverstone,thought it was the stiffest 993rs he had been in,but it is standard dampers springs etc.The secret is solid bushes and a proper set up for that circuit.
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
We need some banter,its nearly getting as boring as piston heads.