964RS - first drive...

[RSGulp]

Paul McLean very kindly showed me around his black 964RS yesterday. We took a good look at the car while he showed me particular areas to pay attention to.

Then we went for a drive...

Paul asked me how quickly I wanted to go. I suggested that I wanted to see what these cars could do - and we agreed he would "go as fast as wanted - within reason" (his words).

Let's just say I'm very, very impressed. I never realised a normally aspirated 911 could go (and feel) so fast. Acceleration was enough to throw me back into the seat even in higher gears, and the brakes?... I was probably even more impressed by the cars ability to stop in such a short distance. We approached the back of a car stopped at a roundabout still accelerating, when I would have normally been hard on the brakes in an SC.

And then we went round a roundabout at a speed which I didn't think a rear-engined RWD car was able to without losing grip. Having said that, I'm very aware that due to Saturday morning traffic, and the risk of attention from the police Paul was probably not even going as fast as he could have gone!

Magazine reviews have always led me to believe RS's have a very harsh ride, and are extremely loud and a little uncomfortable in the cabin. I would say the ride quality was no more harsh than our Mini Cooper S (new mini), and the sound of the engine was obviously louder than my old SC - but not so loud that you weren't able to talk easily to each other. In fact, I felt I was actually able to 'hear' the engine and gearbox working - which gives an entirely different driving experience to my old SC.

As you've probably guessed - I'm smitten. I've had the opportunity to learn what that 'RS' badge means - and even after just a 40 minute drive I am pleased to say I now understand what all the fuss is about! []

 

[Melv]

So Rich, did Paul take your deposit????[]

 

[Andy Tims]

ORIGINAL: Melv

So Rich, did Paul take your deposit????[]

Now Tim Court would have made a smutty remark about that statement []

 

[Melv]

Trust you to even think of that Andy!!

BTW, where did you hide your wheels?[]

 

[Andy Tims]

Safely up in the garage loft - well out of site [][]

 

[carreraboy]

Welcome to the LEICHTBAU Rich...............and he was probably only 6/10ths...

 

[tim court]

ORIGINAL: Melv

So Rich, did Paul take your deposit????[]

Zymol leather cleaner is effective if a little expensive.....

(The voices in my head made me do it!)

 

[carreraboy]

Signor Tim this Man has ha a real and true LEICHTBAU experience he will never be the same try it Tim!

 

[RSGulp]

ORIGINAL: tim court

ORIGINAL: Melv

So Rich, did Paul take your deposit????[]

Zymol leather cleaner is effective if a little expensive.....

(The voices in my head made me do it!)

Nothing that a pre-soak and a bit of persil didn't shift once I got home.[]

 

[SimonExtreme]

ORIGINAL: Rich Claridge
Magazine reviews have always led me to believe RS's have a very harsh ride, and are extremely loud and a little uncomfortable in the cabin. I would say the ride quality was no more harsh than our Mini Cooper S (new mini), and the sound of the engine was obviously louder than my old SC - but not so loud that you weren't able to talk easily to each other. In fact, I felt I was actually able to 'hear' the engine and gearbox working - which gives an entirely different driving experience to my old SC.

AT last! Somebody who doesn't just base their judgement on the car based on what they read in magazines! I have never been able to understand why so many people, including kost RS owners, perpetuate a myth that really isn't true. OK, compared with most softy suspensioned saloons etc, the RS is firm and loud, but against a lot of existing road cars, its not at all bad. In fact, IMO the suspension is no worse than my wife's old Audi TT and many other cars besides.

In addition, there are rediculous stories about how the spit you off the raod because of the suspension being too stiff for UK roads. It simply isn't true. What is true is that, like any other race derived suspension settings, at the limit you need to know what you are doing and this is particularly true because for this purpose, Porsche put the engine in the wrong place!! I am sure you can make the car more predictable on the limit with softer suspension but the limit will be lower.

There are 2 main problems with running one as a daily drive. First, the lack of aircon means that it all too easily mists up in wet weather and in the summer it gets a little warm. The other issue is the clutch and single mass flywheel, which makes driving in traffic and aquired taste! Havings aid that, I took mine for a spin in London today, from Wimbledon to St John's Wood via Willsden and back (yes, strange route!) and even though there was traffic, it was fine.

 

[sambaman]

you wont look back !! there a awesome car without a doubt !!

 

[PhilRS]

ORIGINAL: SimonExtreme
In addition, there are rediculous stories about how the spit you off the raod because of the suspension being too stiff for UK roads. It simply isn't true. What is true is that, like any other race derived suspension settings, at the limit you need to know what you are doing and this is particularly true because for this purpose, Porsche put the engine in the wrong place!! I am sure you can make the car more predictable on the limit with softer suspension but the limit will be lower.

Front suspension can definitely be improved upon for road driving. On two occasions (both times a significant and unpredicatble dip in the road), I was left with both front wheels off the road in the middle of a curve taken fast! On both occasions, when the front wheels decided to land, I ended up with the car facing the incoming traffic!

So let's stop kidding ourselves: a track-tuned suspension cannot be efficient on the road, it is drivers who adapt to hard shocks, not hard shocks that adapt to your typical British roads!

If you are still wondering, fit a slightly softer suspension (e.g. H&R dual-spring 'Nurburgring' shocks) to your RS and drive your typical British road...

I did just this and it was a revelation on the road, though the result was too soft for the track.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

 

[SimonExtreme]

Phil

I am stuggling to get my head around yoir comments! It goes against everything I (think) know about suspension tuning.

Firstly, what you have described in mid corner. I have been thinking about this all night! It comes down to 2 questions. 1. Why did the wheels come off the ground. 2. What could be done to change it. Here are my ideas.

I believe that what you are really describing is a situation where the inner front wheel is already unweighted and something unsettles the outer wheel which is carrying all the load, This would then lead to the front of the car moving significantly sideways while the rear stays about where it should. I have experienced this on cars. I believe that the first thing to understand is that it doesn't matter how much you try, you cannot change physics! If the front goes light after the cornering loads have been applied, you get this problem. The key here is that the front has gone light which suggests that there is too much weight towards the rear. It's the "classic" shot of the front inner waiving in the air. It might look good but its not the fastest or safest way to set up a suspsension.

There are 2 ways of tackling the problem. First, you can stiffen the rear suspension to prevent the weight transfer. This can have negative concequences to the handling, depending on car and driving style, as the rear will become more twitchy but generally, its the way to go. The alternative is to soften the front, to get more weight transfer in that direction. This will reduce the tendency to understeer but can make the back twitchy (again!). There is also the chance that this will reduce the overall cornering speeds.

However, while I believe that you can dial out that sort of problem, I also believe that you do that at the expense of cornering capability. In other words, the car might become safer and more predicatable, but the cornering speeds go down. You would get exactly the same effect from driving a car with standard suspension a bit slower!

As for the comment "a track-tuned suspension cannot be efficient on the road", if I understand the premis being put forward, I cannot agree. I fully accept that for comfort and most people's driving skill levels, a track tuned suspension is not what is needed. Race suspension is twitchy on the limit and gives less feel and notice of impending problems. It will also take your fillings out. However, if you were preparing a 964RS for a tarmac rally stage, I don't think you would find that you softened the suspension. In fact, I am sure you would stiffen it, even for british roads.

The final thing to consider is the condition of the suspension. I have now been in or driven 5 different 964RS's. I have also seen a fair number more being driven at speed. Many cars have what i would describe as "tired" set ups, be it the geometry being well out or the components themselves being past their best. It is suprising just how much difference itall makes.Even if the parts are in good condition, when was the geometry last checked and when was the corner weighting last done. Finally, how well is the suspension tumed to the drivers own driving style? If all of this is wrong, then a car with race bred suspension will be positively dangerous on the road.

Finally, I can honestly say that my car, which has effectively new suspension all around, has had the geometry well set up and has been corner weighted, is an absolute joy on British roads (even some pretty poor ones!) and the level of grip and composure is such that I do not think it is responsible or safe to explore the limits of the grip. I would bet that my car at about 85-90% is still quicker than a car with "detuned" suspnesion closer to the limit.

PLEASE NOTE: this is just my own views and me puting forward my own ideas on the matter. It is meant for discussion, not an all out war!!!

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

My view is probably that shared by many who have been this way before. The front end of the 64RS is probably a little too stiff in relation to the rear, as opposed to too stiff overall. The result is a car that out of the box has some degree of safe understeer built in. This can be tuned out by various methods (as Simon has mentioned) Namely stiffen the rear or soften the front or both, tyre choice and size can also be critical as can altering track widths when taking into acount overall cornering abilty. It should be noted however that in general stiffing both ends does not neccesarily increase cornering speed. What you are ideally after is to strike a balance. For instance as already stated if the front is too stiff for the rear stiffening further will only make matters worse. Driving style and ability also make a big difference to what is acceptable for one person to another.Overall setting up the 64RS ends in a compromise. You can prove this by looking at the way most are set up, I would bet that most have their front roll bar at some where between full soft and medium and the rear at full stiff! Coupled to track day tyres (possibly over size at the front and spacers).
The RS when compared to the cup is soft when put on a track The cup is stiffer overall and it's balance front to rear works better.This is due to the RS compromise for overall manners. However I do feel you can improve things (have your cake and eat it!) Modern dual spring set ups appear to tackle compliance and stiffness issues well (after all it's what Porsche did with the 3.8 RS) Spring rates appear to be lower whilst being able to increase grip.Being able to adjust rebound etc to suit conditions also helps.

 

[PhilRS]

Simon,

I am not a suspension expert whatsoever. My car was in a left-hand turn, the right front wheel fully loaded. There was a dip on the road, the suspension did not follow the dip, the two front wheels took off and when they landed, I was on the other side!

My understanding is that the compression of the RS springs is hard. This helps turn in but it also sends an upward energy on bumps. The rebound of the shock absorber dampens this energy. On the RS it is also hard. So, if the oscillations on the road are at a high frequency (as they did with the sudden dip), this will upset the suspension. Any combination of springs and shocks will have a limit as to the road oscillations that they can handle. Harder settings can only handle low the oscillations. RS shocks like smooth, low oscillating tarmac...

Could experts enlighten this discussion?

 

[PhilRS]

ORIGINAL: Laurence Gibbs

.Overall setting up the 64RS ends in a compromise. You can prove this by looking at the way most are set up, I would bet that most have their front roll bar at some where between full soft and medium and the rear at full stiff! Coupled to track day tyres (possibly over size at the front and spacers).

Interesting... Experts (not me) reckon that the ideal dry 964 RS Spa set up is full hard at the front and medium at the rear, to have understeer in the double-left and Blanchimont. The suggested road full soft-medium at the front and full stiff at the rear should be ... entertaining! []

 

[SimonExtreme]

Interesting feed back and I think that the most important thing is that while there is a lot you can do to make the cars handle differently on the limit, it needs to suit the way you drive.

The biggest problem us "non profesionals" have is that we aren't consistant enough in the way we approach a corner and therefore we can have a set up that works one time but not another. On a track, a good driver will use the same lines, when allowed by other cars etc, and it is therefore possible to set up a car to the individual driving style. I remeber when Prost and Senna were in the same team their set ups were so different that they literally couldn't drive each others cars. As they didn't know who would need the spare car, they used to set it up for one driver one week, the other the following. If they were unlucky and needed the spare, it was a 50/50 chance it would be OK. The alternative was for them to set the car up with a comprimise for both, and that would then give a 100% guarantee that neither would be competitive!!!

Back to the 64RS. I am not saying that the car acnnot be improved, but I do think that the "problems" are only at the limits and I personally would never explore those on the road. I would also not like to dilute the race car feel by playing with the suspension, although to be fair I haven't driven a car with theb type of set up Phil describes.
Another way of getting the car to behave differently is by playing with the ride heights at each end so as to transfer weight differently.

I would guess that while there is probably a lot of data about these changes for track use, there isn't so much for road use because of lack of demand to get it sorted.

From what Phil describes, there is a suggestion that the front was light before hitting the dip. I think there are many factors at play but I suspect that they could be dialed out of the existing suspension, assuming that suspension was in good order. But it would probably need the help of a good suspension man to help sort it. I would increase ride height to the rear, reduce it at the front and soften up the front a little.

And finally, is it worth it? Do any of us (other than Phil[]) really push on that hard on the road? What is sure is that race based suspension set ups are more twitchy and less predicatable.

 

[PhilRS]

Also, amateurs like us, in the absence of reference, tend to adjust our driving to our cars rather than adjust our cars to our driving. A good example: my RSR was on full hard front and full hard rear (roll bars) and I thought that it was going extremely well (at Spa, using the RS as a comparison). I did 5 track days at Spa with this set-up. Then, an informed race mechanic pointed out the problem and adjusted the rear roll bar to medium. The difference that it made in how early I could re-apply power exiting a curve and the speed through Raidillon hard to believeable. Also, I did not have to unwind some lock exiting fast curves [].

So, here is our problem: sorting out bad driving from bad car set-up...

Simon, I anticipated something and I am now only driving my 911 on the track []

 

[Laurence Gibbs]

Well that's interesting phil, the setup at Spa you are refering to was this for a 964 RS or a RSR. You mention both and suggested that the setup was on your RSR?. The two are quite different as i mentioned. The setup i was refering to was one put on my RS by Parr who I thought were experts in this field? By the way I was not suggesting that this is how the car should be set up for the road.

 

[PhilRS]

ORIGINAL: Laurence Gibbs

Well that's interesting phil, the setup at Spa you are refering to was this for a 964 RS or a RSR. You mention both and suggested that the setup was on your RSR?. The two are quite different as i mentioned. The setup i was refering to was one put on my RS by Parr who I thought were experts in this field? By the way I was not suggesting that this is how the car should be set up for the road.

The roll bar set-up for Spa was the same for the RSR and the RS: Full hard at the front and medium at the rear. I do not know how this set-up generalises well to other tracks. I would doubt it because a fast lap at Spa means (1) fast exit at Raidillon, (2) fast exit at Double-left and (3) fast exit at Blanchimont. These are fast 4th gear curves where understeer is wanted.