964RS - quite tricky in the wet then...

[Matt]

Oulton Park on Saturday for trackday (had to choose it over Donington as my last trackday of the year) - confirmed that in my (very) limited track visits Oulton is my favorite.

Started off damp - was very slippy at the back of the circuit around Druids & Lodge (like braking on ice coming into lodge first thing in the morning..) then dried out. Had a fantastic day - one of those ones where it all clicked and the car felt great - had 3 or 4 quite long sessions was riding a massive adreneline high..then it p1ssed it down - and we went out for a very slow play to try and get a feel for the car in the wet.

Suprising amount of grip under braking and acceleration, very little lateral grip..found out that when it bites it bites very quickly - spun at the chicane after the shell hairpin - then second time under acceleration out of the same chicane - over the brow flat out in 3rd - rear goes light, comes round in a micro second, spin a few times, onto the grass, towards the tyre wall, frantic flailing on steering wheel, come to a rest half on the grass, half on the track [] more luck than judgement.

no damage so we finished the lap in nervous laughter...chap in a Caterham R400 thing had the same thing happen to him in the same place but was not so lucky as ended up in the tyres. Loads of other incidents so we called it a day whilst still in one piece. Top drawer day all round however and a good lesson in the respect needed for the RS in the wet..

 

[Yoda]

Hi Matt

Sounds like fun but possibly too much of an adreneline rush .....

Mel, Jim and I had an excellent day at Donington, what a circuit. Managed a spin coming out of Coppice due probably to not so subtle use of the revs in 3rd on exit but styed on the black stuff.

Damp until about 10.30 after which it dried out and stayed that way. By the afternoon, was really getting the car hooked up and it felt so much better. Instruction also made a difference and I felt much more confident.

Jim seemed to have a lot of fun and was certainly doing well under the guidance of a certain Richard Attwood (the force is definitely strong in that one) and Mel got to break in his slicks.

A good day had by all and a very well run track day. Not crowded at all and I think I ended up doing about 350 km on track. Definitely my favourite circuit.

Nice to see everyone.

 

[vic cohen]

Amazing how much quicker u can go on grass????????? What a horrible feeling parallel to Craner curves and not slowing down [last week with Feroz etc ] .......................only muddy outcome though . Some tracks are definitely more slippery than others and Oulton under those trees???

 

[Melv]

"Managed a spin coming out of Coppice due probably to not so subtle use of the revs in 3rd on exit but styed on the black stuff. "

B*ll*cks!! I saw you, you were trying to keep up with me!!!! [][][]

T'was a cracking day, and I don't envy you in the conditions at Oulton, Matt. You must have a had a truly cr*p journey back too!! Glad you enjoyed it though -my number one UK circuit (followed by Donny and Brands GP.....[])

Rgds
Mel

 

[Yoda]

I never hit a thing !! and there was no grass on my car so I figured it just span on the tarmac. I think I was too sudden with the gas and it went too quickly for me to catch it. What was strange was that it was quite a long way past the apex as I was reapplying the power for the long straight. As for trying to keep up with you Mel, don't flatter yourself [][][].

Agree with Matt, braking and acceleration were ok but lateral grip on the Michelin Cup tyres was very poor in cold/damp conditions. Very tempted to try either the Dunlop or Pirelli track day tyres next time as I hear they are better in wet and only give a little away when it dries up. The Cup tyres are fantastic in the dry though - took some time to get heat into them but felt very good in the afternoon.

Interested to hear thoughts on tyre choice. I was originally thinking of getting an extra set of wheels/tyres but would like to stick to a single set for the time being due to lack of space to store extra wheels. I know Jim likes the Pirelli Corsas, Jaz have recommended the Dunlop track tyre. Any other choices? I hear Avon do a track day tyre but haven'y come accross anyone who has used them on a 964 yet.

 

[Mark_Bennett]

I think Peter Skelton has used the Avons on a 993 if that is any help...?

 

[vic cohen]

Jaz may have based that on the Dunlops they sold me ...........was wearing them Friday ,brilliant in the wet but compared to Brands, was at least twice as wet ............Dony was very slippery on Friday, please believe me ,nothing was that good except perhaps Steve Dolby in The Michelin car on road tyres!! UR RIGHT THE CUPSPORTS ARE LIKE 'GHASTLY 'IN THOSE CONDITIONS .....................Jimbers and i were on track at same time and his grip on Corsas seemed very similar to mine in wet ......................... Peter does nt go out in the wet much but likes his Avons in the dry .
By the way the Dunlops are nt as good as Cups in the dry but then its a ll a bit of a compromise !

 

[Melv]

Flattery? Moi?? Is that Michael???[]

Henners mentioned Dunlop D01J(?) as a good all rounder.

Coppice still very slippery if just off line, even at the end of the turn.

Have you come across Vic Elford's piece of string tied from your big toe to the bottom of the steering wheel? Basically means that when the wheel is turned, the foot is raised proportionally, whether on the brake or the accelerator -think about it -always works for me. []

I also keep in mind Jackie Stewart's advice about thinking of your car as a huge box with a ball bearing in it -the object is to move the ball bearing around the box gently, so no sudden movements, gentle braking and acceleration and gentle turn in etc.

Rgds
Mel

 

[Yoda]

Mel - I have Vic Elford's book, quite good and lots of useful points. I remember the string/steering wheel/toe thought process well. Unfortunately, reading/understanding doesn't equate to application. I think my string was far more like elastic hence the magic roundabout experience!!

I think smoothly does it from now on!! May se eyou this evening.

Regards

 

[vic cohen]

No string on my toes ! CU Later

 

[Matt]

like you Feroz - I read the bit about string steering wheel/toe but my bit of string was miles too long..[]

 

[RSR]

Thanks for the passenger laps Vic. Yes Coppice was very slippery. I could feel it from the passenger seat.

If you only make small smooth inputs then you will only have to make small smooth corrections. Large sudden applications of any inputs means you will have to make large sudden corrections to deal with the outcome. It's the laws of physics.

 

[oliver]

The trouble is, in the wet, the margin between balance and imbalance is so narrow.

On most circuits, even airfield circuits, we are trying not to lose control, whereas the best way to learn is to be able to practice losing control, then gradually learning to catch and control it.

I know there are courses, like Don Palmer's Wetter the Better, but ideally one needs unlimited playtime on a circuit like Top Gear's, or that beach (and someone else's car).

 

[SimonExtreme]

Totally agree with Oliver. The best way of learning the limits is to exceed them and for that you need a lot of space. Bedford is a good comprimise or any of the genuine airfield trackdays. That's what I will be doing with my car. In addition, its also about understanding how the car reacts once the limit has been exceeded. You can drive far closer to that limit if you know what is to come if the limit is exceeded and that you know what to do ( other than pray!!)

 

[Melv]

I learnt a lot from playing with the Cup Car on a wet runway at Brooklands (sadly no longer available).

So when I did lose it at Bedford in one big 360, (usual place, right in front of the pits.....[&:]) I knew what to expect, dipped clutch and into second and carried on!! []

Mel

 

[Guest]

I'd really recommend the Corsa's...when I first put them on they made the car feel so much better on the road and on the track they, and Richard, we're what managed my exuberence. Without both things I'd have been toast early on.

but what a fab day...but I so nearly hit a car that span in front of me (about 1ft to spare) and when the guy came up to me in the pits he was absolutely amazed by "my manouver"...until I assured him it was luck not judgement...then he went a little quiet!

And only a couple of laps before I nearly did what Fz did in exactly the same place.

But all in all the RS wasn't the handful I thought it was going to be....just got to go round on my own now!!!!! AND keep up with you pesky lot!

Oh and ditto on the learning where she breaks and baulks.......Mr A is happy to hire either millbrook or MIRA and provide tuition for a bunch of us (I suggested I'd like to learn the limits and how to handle them on the way home remebering Mel had mentioned it to me as a good way to learn at JZ) so if anyones interested I'll pursue it?

what a great car!

 

[vic cohen]

Overriding point James, dont these cars just come into their own on a track? Just what they were intended for !

 

[Matt]

james

i'm well up for driver training as surviving on luck alone is probably a short lived route to financial disaster..as I trashed my last two 911's I'd prefer not to do the same to the clubsport []

let me know if you get anywhere with it??

cheers

matt

 

[SimonExtreme]

James

I am up for it as well.

Matt

Take it easy, Tiger. Don't make it 3 in a row

 

[Yoda]

Jim - I'd be interested too subject to the usual - dates, venue, cost, dog ate my keys etc ........

Would be good to get a feel for the car with some instruction. I have hear good things about Don Palmers "the wetter the better" days. Any one tried those?