993 Alignment
- Thread starter burrow01
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Alex Postan
New member
I'll send you the email with the info I sent to the previous alignment place [
]
It's a setting on the rear suspension of the 993 that you need a Porsche specific tool for
You need to set this before doing the camber / toe etc otherwise all the adjustment is a waste of time
The tool costs approx €2000 despite looking like a posh spirit level. Most places that have it charge about £200 per alignment, plus any work that needs to be done, so I'm really interested if STS can do the same for £50...[]
Pete
]It's a setting on the rear suspension of the 993 that you need a Porsche specific tool for
You need to set this before doing the camber / toe etc otherwise all the adjustment is a waste of time
The tool costs approx €2000 despite looking like a posh spirit level. Most places that have it charge about £200 per alignment, plus any work that needs to be done, so I'm really interested if STS can do the same for £50...[
]Pete
Kinematic toe (KT) - programmed change in toe when rear wheel is under load condition. It can be likened to passive rear wheel steer. An additional control arm (a part of the multilink config) induces a change in toe at the wheel under load and the opposite change in toe on the othe rear wheel.
The objective of adjusting KT is balancing the two rear wheels using 'posh spirit level' which attaches to the rear hub. Porsche quote Standard Units to measure the KT using the KT gauge. KT should be checked after any geometry adjustments to camber or toe. See Maurice's tech article on the forum at:
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=112427&mpage=1&key=kinematic%2Ctoe𛜫
Some advice to help; make sure supplier of geometry services checks the trim of the car DIN Kerb weight (full tank, fluids topped up etc), correct tyre pressures and ride heights correct. Porsche approve the use of wheel adaptors if using 'on the wheel laser sensors', removing need to do 'runout' checks at the wheel.This needs for each wheel to be lifted off the ground and rotated. Using the adaptors, runout is removed from the geometry equation as the hub adaptors mate perfectly with the wheel hub. This means the dampers/springs/bushes are in the same attitude as driven and don't have to be settled again after runout check is done. This can be difficult to achieve accurately when the suspension is 'cold'
The objective of adjusting KT is balancing the two rear wheels using 'posh spirit level' which attaches to the rear hub. Porsche quote Standard Units to measure the KT using the KT gauge. KT should be checked after any geometry adjustments to camber or toe. See Maurice's tech article on the forum at:
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=112427&mpage=1&key=kinematic%2Ctoe𛜫
Some advice to help; make sure supplier of geometry services checks the trim of the car DIN Kerb weight (full tank, fluids topped up etc), correct tyre pressures and ride heights correct. Porsche approve the use of wheel adaptors if using 'on the wheel laser sensors', removing need to do 'runout' checks at the wheel.This needs for each wheel to be lifted off the ground and rotated. Using the adaptors, runout is removed from the geometry equation as the hub adaptors mate perfectly with the wheel hub. This means the dampers/springs/bushes are in the same attitude as driven and don't have to be settled again after runout check is done. This can be difficult to achieve accurately when the suspension is 'cold'
It's a subject that I'm really enthusiastic about.
In terms of getting alignment done at a place, Maurice has posted some suppliers that have the necessary expertise and equipment, again have a peek at his Tech Articles, they have very good feedback.
I am very fortunate to be able to do all of my suspension and geometry work myself []. I find to get the settings just right takes time. Unfortunately time is money so the specialist will charge for a spot on job. If this is one to two hours you may have an £80.00 to £180.00 bill. IMHO this is justified as if the KT is not attended to it can make for a very scary ride when on the edge.
In terms of getting alignment done at a place, Maurice has posted some suppliers that have the necessary expertise and equipment, again have a peek at his Tech Articles, they have very good feedback.
I am very fortunate to be able to do all of my suspension and geometry work myself [
]. I find to get the settings just right takes time. Unfortunately time is money so the specialist will charge for a spot on job. If this is one to two hours you may have an £80.00 to £180.00 bill. IMHO this is justified as if the KT is not attended to it can make for a very scary ride when on the edge.
Hi - I agree that it is worth paying someones time to get the alignment done correctly (I do object to some of the high charges for the initial checks, given the relatively low cost of the KT tool)
One question - you say the KT should be measured after setting the Toe / Camber etc. I have read in other articles that the KT should be checked prior to adjusting the other suspension settings?
Thanks for the info
Pete
One question - you say the KT should be measured after setting the Toe / Camber etc. I have read in other articles that the KT should be checked prior to adjusting the other suspension settings?
Thanks for the info
Pete
Kinematic toe (KT here) should be measured as part of the initial data gathering task. This gives us pointers to address any idiosynchracies of the car's handling.
Kinematic toe should then be checked again after any changes to rear toe or camber or ride heights. There is a useful procedure adopted by the American racers to set the KT on both sides to an arbitrary value (the same) before any camber/toe adjustments. Again this ensures a baseline to start from for both wheels. KT should then be adjusted finally after camber and toe changes have been made. Camber and toe are again checked after KT adjustment. The objective is to get 1.5 to 2 SI units of KT on each wheel with minimal difference between.
As for time/cost let's assume no runout required, calibrated laser equipment, calibrated flat ramp, unseized eccentric adjusters, adjustment of rear camber/toe/KT and front caster/camber/toe. I would expect 2-3hours work, assuming a £40.00 per hour rate (low national average, OPC's can and do charge upto £100.00per hour) cost would be £80.00 to £120.00 before vat. I would expect a before-target-after report and a warranty of some sort. I would only expect to pay a small premium (not punitive) for KT adjustment, after all it is just another adjustment. Some shops do an initial check for £30.00 and upto £20.00 per adjustment. In the 993 case, worst-case that's 6 rear+6front =12 x 20 = £240.00! It would be unlikely that they know what Kinematic toe is, just like the example above, however if described as 'passive rear wheel steer' they will know, but unlikely to have the equipment to check.
Please PM me or email, I would be very happy to help.
Kinematic toe should then be checked again after any changes to rear toe or camber or ride heights. There is a useful procedure adopted by the American racers to set the KT on both sides to an arbitrary value (the same) before any camber/toe adjustments. Again this ensures a baseline to start from for both wheels. KT should then be adjusted finally after camber and toe changes have been made. Camber and toe are again checked after KT adjustment. The objective is to get 1.5 to 2 SI units of KT on each wheel with minimal difference between.
As for time/cost let's assume no runout required, calibrated laser equipment, calibrated flat ramp, unseized eccentric adjusters, adjustment of rear camber/toe/KT and front caster/camber/toe. I would expect 2-3hours work, assuming a £40.00 per hour rate (low national average, OPC's can and do charge upto £100.00per hour) cost would be £80.00 to £120.00 before vat. I would expect a before-target-after report and a warranty of some sort. I would only expect to pay a small premium (not punitive) for KT adjustment, after all it is just another adjustment. Some shops do an initial check for £30.00 and upto £20.00 per adjustment. In the 993 case, worst-case that's 6 rear+6front =12 x 20 = £240.00! It would be unlikely that they know what Kinematic toe is, just like the example above, however if described as 'passive rear wheel steer' they will know, but unlikely to have the equipment to check.
Please PM me or email, I would be very happy to help.
Interesting discussion.
Where would be the best place to get a '83 3.2 or a '81 930 fully setup ? Camber, castor, corner weights etc etc.
Where would be the best place to get a '83 3.2 or a '81 930 fully setup ? Camber, castor, corner weights etc etc.
"franklin" is being modest he has the works I have just had my 3.2 supersport done, with I might add some scepticism,the handling which I always thought was how it should be,is now totally different except for one aspect which I asked to be kept dialled in.We have three Porsches and as and when the readies are available will have the other two sorted .Chris is a really efficient operater,he works with Jane his charming wife,and unlike most specialists invites you to stay and if you wish and are able, lend a hand.
Thanks for the reply. When I am ready I will certainly be getting in contact with Chris.
Does Chris have scales set up as well ?
As I have two cars I did see that someone with the PCGB offers a mobile service.
Does Chris have scales set up as well ?
As I have two cars I did see that someone with the PCGB offers a mobile service.
Had my 993 re-alignment done by Chris last weekend. Yesterday was the first chance to try it out fully. The car has been totally transformed, and doesn't feel like my old car at all. As well as improved cornering, straight line stability is out of this world. My 993 has MO30 suspension and 18" wheels by the way.
Contact Chris and see if he is planning to come to your area. He may be willing to come especially if you can guarantee a number of cars for the day, or even a couple of days. He doesn't do only Porsche, and travells the country
Contact Chris and see if he is planning to come to your area. He may be willing to come especially if you can guarantee a number of cars for the day, or even a couple of days. He doesn't do only Porsche, and travells the country
Cool, thanks.
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