997.1 Clutch replacement

[Tamer]

Edit: 15/10/2016
New Clutch now fitted.
Thank you all very much for your replies and recommendations.

Hello everyone,
After writing this, I have realised that I got carried away a little.

You can ignore the rest of this post by reading a summary up to 'pagebreak'.

My clutch is almost gone. I need to have it replaced as soon as possible as it is now showing all the common signs of a very well worn clutch. I am considering an Indy to carry out the work rather than OPC, to save some money as I believe there are competent independent mechanics out there and because I'm considering other maintenance works in the near future, which are not so urgent (engine mounts, bushes and shocks) and will need to watch the budget.

I live in Bristol and would love to hear from anyone who can recommend a local independent porsche specialists who can do this work and at a reasonable price. I have looked around and before I start making phone calls, I am seeing quotes on the internet as; OPC 1700, Cotswold CALL (for a quote) but 996 clutch is quoted at 750, and Advanced Car Care £972 inc Vat I suspect these prices do not include a release bearing and mass flywheel, which I think would be wise to renew.

I have also looked around and if it wasn't for the labour costs, an OEM Sachs Clutch kit including a mass flywheel can be purchased for around 850, not original but 4 yr or 40k warranty. Is this worth considering? And would it be acceptable to a garage for me to supply own parts when dealing with a garage? Ideally I would like the garage to supply and fit..

My car is at 125k miles. But the car had a new engine fitted after 65k, under warranty... The clutch that now needs replacing may well be the original one, the first or may be second?. In any case I'm considering changing the mass flywheel two. And a few other things that I am not fully clear on yet. Ideas on what might be worth while things to do while we're "in there", with the gearbox out would be appreciated. For example The IMS bearing from Pelican Parts , although I'm wondering if to leave it alone as I don't have such a problem, or if it is an opportunity to avoid a big headache in future?

_____pagebreak______

I have owned my 997.1 for over two years now. The car has served me well as a daily although I have some misgivings about access to the rear parcel shelf and general usefulness of the rear zone in the cockpit, even though shopping is easy to drop into the frunk. I guess I now understand that my ideal 911 would be the Targa 997 (I don't like how Targa is interpreted in the new transformer-style 991 Targa models)... The 997 targa are the only 911 models I know of with that vital rear 'hatch' where the rear windscreen pops up for access into the vehicle and I can't fathom why this was not continued. It would feel better if I also mention that clearly it is possible to put operational rear windows in a 911 as they exist in the convertible range. And my other pet hate is, the need to slide the seats back and forth at least twice each time a passenger (albeit a small person) needs to get in the back, if the seat is not far back enough, when folded forwards for passenger to step into the rear, the top of the seat catches on the sun-blind. So you have to slide the seat all the way back, then fold it, then slide it all the way to the front for passenger to enter, then slide it as far back as you can to avoid catching the rear seat passengers' legs AND avoid catching the sun-blind as you bring the seat back into final position.

With those minor imperfections.. I'm in love with my car and can see myself holding on to it for a while longer. I'm always on the lookout for ways to maintaining the car and adding value to it if at all possible.

For some time I have been trying to understand a number of oddities about this car. It is my first 911, so I had no point of reference for comparison to understand if I had bought a lemon from an unofficial dealer albeit with Full PSH, which I have maintained. Or if some of the things are mere characteristics of the car.
At the beginning, (rather after buying the car) with all the hype about the notoriously epidemic IMS bearing failures and general reliability issues during transition from air cooled engines and particularly during the 996 era were of concern. There were cases of early 997's too that suffered from IMS bearing failures and engine bore issues (associated more) with the 3.8 engines. I wondered if I had made a mistake, given that the money would have replaced my fully loaded five year old 635D Sport Edition, which was written off.

I soon realised that I bought a good example of the 911 Carrera models, I opted for the 997.1 over some top of the range 996 models and believe I made the right choice as 996 models appear to depreciate quicker. My instinct of keeping it simple by accepting the 3.6 sibling over the S models with fewer buttons on the dashboard, a couple of centimetres narrower body, 0.5 Seconds behind from 0-60 and about 4mph at top and insignificant (for me) performance and extras in between v.s lower capital, lower Road tax, lower running costs, lower maintenance costs, lower weight, it is the perfect first 911 and I have no intention of replacing it yet.

I have been concerned about a catchy engagement of 1st and 2nd gears. Not always but from time to time. Some seem to acknowledge this symptom and put it down to temperatures and getting better as the car warms up.. Others suggested gear shift cables, which I have changed, the clutch and even syncro-mesh. Until this week, there was no usual signs of a clutch problem. No slipping in any gear, All other gears engaging okay.

If the catchy-ness of selecting 1st and 2nd gears occasionally was due to a gearbox (synchro mesh) problems, then the gearbox would need to be overhauled and that would be costly. The clutch is next most expensive on my list and perhaps should have been changed a couple of months ago. My pedal was a bit odd and the clutch latched near the end but it never slipped and I couldn't get it to slip in any gear. The car would pull away rapidly. But now. It is now free revving on-demand and the pedal actually feels different. Not as much spring in it and the feel of slipping as the car doesn;t thrust forward as it used to I have replaced both the shift lever and gear shift selector cables. These didn't make any noticeable difference and it could be because it was the clutch all along. I hope I will not have to go as far as the gearbox but everything else in between would have been fixed after I replace the clutch. I will find out soon.

I would appreciate any ideas and recommendations and would be happy to discuss the symptoms described above if anyone wishes to compare against their own experiences.

Thanks.

 

[ralphmusic]

Consider SCS just outside Honiton off A30 www.scsporsche.co.uk

 

[STiG911]

Okay, in no particular order:

125k is a stonking achievement, Sir!

I'm reasonably certain that early 997s getting new engines later in life but under warranty had an updated IMS bearing (from late 2006 onwards) I'd say wherever you get your clutch done, ask them to prepare to replace it, but that on inspection it'll be fine. Also if it's not been done (unlikely) change the gearbox fluid while it's out - it's prudent to do so given the mileage, and might help with notchy gear selection but most do seem to be reluctant when cold anyway, as mine is. You're actually lucky with the C2 as the C2s has auto-adjustment in the pedal mechanism, so there's no warning before the clutch starts slipping. I'd wager that the clutch is not the original as most experts reckon on it lasting 40 - 60k miles depending on how it's driven.
While the engine is out for the clutch, I'd get the Tandem Pump and Battery Earth Strap checked, again, given the mileage. The Tandem Pump boosts pressure to the brakes, and is on the bottom right of the engine when viewed from the back of the car, hence it gets covered in road grime and corrodes. The Earth Strap runs over the top of the engine and can fray and split due to repeated heating and cooling, so is an easy win with the engine out. Coil Packs would be another item to check if they've not been replaced or inspected in the last two years or so.
Any indy worth their salt will throughly check the engine and box over while its out anyway, and advise accordingly. I know you said you've got some concerns about bushes and shocks, but don't ignore engine related advisories which can be done at the same time as the clutch, or you'll end up paying far more to get the job done as a single task later!

Finally - Your car is NOT narrower than a C2s - the C2 and C2s share the same body. You wouldn't believe how many people fall for this! Even the GT3 is the same width - The wider models are C4, C4s, Turbo and GT3RS. And breathe...

 

[C2dweller]

Sorry for the 'call-us' on the menu price page. We're trying to go through them methodically. If you supply your reg I can give you an estimate (recommend PM).
Some advice: Sachs are Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) for clutches and LUK for flywheels. These can be used instead of OE parts at some considerable saving without compromising quality.
Is a flywheel required? Quite often a clutch manufacturer will only honour warranty claims if fitted with a new flywheel. We take a pragmatic view and simply test the flywheel at the point of clutch change.
A rule of thumb, which is about the best I've heard, is that you will get two clutchs to one flywheel on pre-gen 2 cars. If it was changed last time you might be OK... but be prepared.
Happy to chat about your other queries if you call me.
Kind Regards Lee

 

[Timbo2]

I can recommend Marque 21, they are in Bridport, Dorset, so a little distance to travel, but they could do it while you wait, I think, not sure of the time needed. They are a very friendly and knowledgeable team who prepare porsches and Jaguars for racing as well as doing servicing. I have used them a number of times, have a look at their web site. info@marque21.co.uk There is also Camerons of Bath but I have no knowledge of them.

 

[Tamer]

Dear STiG911,
Thank you for your informative response.

My 997.1 is a 2005 Model, Registered in May of'05.
The engine was replaced in July 2009... My service indicates this as a hand written "new engine fitted" next to the 3rd Service and stamp with a Porsche Job number. Being the third service, I suspect it was under warranty.. I had this confirmed at Bristol OPC during a Major Service last year.. OPC casually said yes, it has a new engine but, no details, so I don't know which 'type' or where that leaves me with IMS-phobia I imagine the IMS monster was well understood by 2009 and the replacement engine would have been an improved version that you refer to (?). I'm not sure but I think the MY05 engines were designed for the 996 models and MY06 for the 997 and there might have been one or the other fitted to each model when the newer model was being introduced and old one phased out. Is there an easy way to tell? Given that engine number in my Service History booklet and VIN on windscreen will still bear the original engine's details??

The gearbox oil change is a good suggestion. To my surprise what Porsche call a Major Service doesn't actually include GearBox oil change, or ClutchFluid. I had these and Timing belt changed during the Major Service earlier this year as optional extras

The notchy gear issue is one that comes and goes and I think it will always be. I'm not ready to overhaul what is otherwise a great gearbox, to find out. It's not that bad

I had always suspected the clutch as being 'worn' because it didn't bite until you released the pedal 3/4 of the way up. And no matter how I tried, I couldn't get it to slip, which seemed like the only way to be certain that 'it's dead Jim' Of course there was all the auxiliary possibilities like pedal / cable mechanics, fluids /cylinder and most of all lack of knowledge and understanding on my part that made it all too vague to be sure whether I was being paranoid or on to something.

As for your suggestions "while in there". That is exactly how my mind works and how I had intended to approach this. However, after many months of suspicion, making notes, peeking and poking for signs of certainty, I suddenly found myself doing my usual round of daily trips in my only car anticipating the clutch to pop at each and every junction and traffic light. This motivated me to resist submitting to OPC and dive straight in to a game of Russian roulette with my pride and joy.

I first hit the PGB forum, very late at night. The following morning I searched for 'local ' indies on the Internet and with only two or three obvious 'local' ones, I called PorscheMode. Marco the owner seemed knowledgeable and equally importantly, available. In short, I contacted Marco on Friday around noon. Dropped my car off at noon on Saturday, he kindly provided a courtesy car and I picked my car up at 5pm. It's done! I know I took a big risk and possibly rushed this but it seems to have paid off. Marco has not only given me a pit-stop service but has since called me to ask if all was okay, which is reassuring. The clutch now bites near the floor and I seem to have full thrust again

The new clutch fitted is the Sachs three piece kit. I have also had a new DMF fitted. This was the kit I had identified before meeting Marco, so I was satisfied with what was going in. I didn't catch photos of the new kit but the one that was pulled from the car is shown in the attached photograph.

Although it feels like I may have missed the chance to do other things, Marco did say everything looked fine under there and given the history of the engine/car I don't think anything obvious was overlooked. Although I wonder about the Earth Strap and Tandem Pump you mention. Although I also remember one of the guys suggesting that they didn't pull the engine out, just the gearbox so may not have had access to some of these. Again I had my CoilPacks and Sparks replaced during a service earlier this year, so they should be in good nick. All in all, the car is in good nick but in the near future I hope to change engine mounts and bushes all round to optimize the ride, handling and comfort levels. My 20 inch alloys are not helping much as also pointed out by Marco earlier today.

Anyway. Thank you very much for your quick response and for sharing your knowledge and thoughts to help me through my clutch saga. I'm so relieved that it's over.

As for you other points. The wide body issue makes sense. the '4' models are four wheel drive and probably need a different diff setup hence the notorious wide-body.

In any case, I can say without doubt that I have never felt like the owner of an inferior model Carrera 911 in the real world, some people love and compliment my car - some don't admit that they do The only time I vaguely get that feeling of the complex is when I'm among high brow Porsche enthusiasts who don't believe anything other than a Turbo S, GT3RS or one with an Air Cooled engine, is a 911. But hey ho... As long as everyone is happy ;-)

 

[Tamer]

Dear ralphmusic, STiG911, C2dweller and Timbo2
Thank you all for your replies.

I managed to get this sorted pretty much as Timbo2 said Marque 21 in Dorset could, 'while you wait'.
One of the other factors in choosing PorscheMode was that it was just 2.3 miles from me.

All recommendations noted and appreciated. Thank you.

 

[STiG911]

Hey Tamer,

Glad you got it sorted - and so quick! That's some drive-in, drive-out service right there!
Managing the change without removing both engine and box is some achievement, too. I wasn't aware this was possible. Having said that, given that youe engine is quite new (and that a new-from-Porsche engine comes as a complete unit) your tandem pump will be OK.
It's a bit off that you haven't got any real details on your engine replacement - a note in the service book is not good enough IMO, you should have a fully detailed invoice or advisory note from the OPC where the work was done. Often a call to any OPC with your chassis number will enable you to get a full vehicle history, at least verbally. Particularly as the engine is warranted for two years by Porsche once fitted and, as you say, you need to be sure about 'IMS Phobia'. As your work up until now has all been at an OPC, I'd visit them to discuss your cars history and not take No for an answer. They've had plenty of business out of you after all.

 

[Tamer]

edit 18/10/2016

This doesn't tell me what version or model the engine in my car is but I have attached a photo of the label in my service booklet, which shows details of the original engine and chasis details.
When I compare this to my Log book, I see a different format for 'engine-number'....which is shown as an eight digit number 695075xx .

Does anyone understand the logic is, behind how the engine number shown in my log book (see attached image) versus the way DVLA 'thinks' it is an eight digit number shown in my V5. ?
The only correlation I can see is the 695 part, which appears in both cases. I'm so confused...

It's a bit off that you haven't got any real details on your engine replacement - ......I'd visit them to discuss your cars history and not take No for an answer. They've had plenty of business out of you after all.

STiG911
I was also surprised by the turnaround time. Marco did say there was "four of us" and I can imagine it was a well coordinated operating theatre with a team of guys/gals who had done this kind of work before.

I'm relieved because, I feared that I would end up going through a breakdown and roadside recovery process after clear signs of clutch slipping that suddenly rendered my 911 into nothing more than a hair dryer

Yes. You're right, I should be able get my hands on information about the history of my car but I don't know how to. My polite approach and attempt to get to the bottom of this ended up with a verbal acknowledgement from OPC; "yes, new engine was fitted". I accepted the confirmation as a significant breakthrough and imagined if it was ever needed I could ask for more information.

There is a 'job number' next to the hand written note and the OPC service stamp in the book. I imagine what ever document or information this 'job number' refers to will have my new engine number but it's not clear if and how I can get to it, given that it is effectively an 'internal document' to the Porsche company.

On another note. Earlier in the year I had a Major Service carried out at OPC. According to information in my service booklet, the dealer should have given me a full report, including what they had changed, what they checked and tested. I thought this Report would be a printed or electronic document would be given to me during check-out. I paid IRO 850 for the major service (and timing belt + gBox oil change as extras) and ended up with an invoice with little or no information about details of the work carried out or anything they may have observed during the service. No Report or anything that might suggest the cars' condition or if there might be other things I should consider. Nothing like the promise in the service booklet and what I had imagined.

Sometimes we are taken advantage of because we do not have the time to get to the information we need. Of course OPC has all the information I need. And of course OPC would have honoured what is promised in my service book if and when a Major Service is carried out, if I insisted on it. But not many of us have the skills or in some cases the time, to negotiate through layers of receptionists, service advisors, Managers and so on and let alone all that but it takes a rare breed of person to do all this without being rude to idiots placed in your way as obstacles so that you will more than likely to give up.

Unless you spend even more.... and pay for it.
When I first bought my car (from an independent dealer). I took it straight to my local OPC for a full inspection, to be sure that it was n't a problematic car and had full PSH.... That (OPC inspection service??) cost me around 100 pounds and was worth every penny. The report was fairly detailed and covered the condition of the car from tyres, suspension, exhaust to engine. It's how I knew I that my old ignition coils were "corroded" and subsequently changed.... The service booklet implies this is the kind of 'report' you will get following a Major Service.

I imagined the Full Service report as described in the Service Booklet (I will take pictures and post here as I can't remember it verbatim) would be a similar 'report'. But I wasn't given a report as such following the Major Service. I'm sure such a Report would be very useful to future owners of the car and contribute to the net worth of the vehicle when it is sold on.

It seems that in the commercial world, I.e. dealing with Porsche who is after all a profit making business, you really have to push boundaries of your business relationship to get what you are due. You would think that if a customer asks for confirmation of what engine is in their car, a decent main dealer would give the customer more than a verbal "yes". Thinking about it, I really do need to know more about the history of my car so that I can continue to maintain it, independent of OPC because, I could be ordering and buying components and parts for my car/engine that are not the right fit or solution.

 

[ralphmusic]

Wouldn't the replacement engine number be notified as a change to the DVLA, I did this on fitting the 3.8L to the Cayman.

 

[Tamer]

Wouldn't the replacement engine number be notified as a change to the DVLA, I did this on fitting the 3.8L to the Cayman.

Hey ralphmusic,
Can you take a look at the update to my post in this thread (" Monday, October 17, 2016 6:33 PM ").
I have posted a photo of my engine number as it appears on page four of my service-book. I am assuming this is my original engine number.

Could you compare your engine number on your V5 and one in your service book sticker like mine.

Are they similar?
Thanks.

 

[ralphmusic]

Could you compare your engine number on your V5 and one in your service book sticker like mine.

Are they similar?
Thanks.

I will on Friday when I get car and book back from a development project.

 

[STiG911]

Managed to dig this out of the 911uk forum:

M96/05 = 997 3.6 Carrera NA - Engine no. 695*****
6 = 6 cylinders
9 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
***** = cumulative production serial no
Engine numbers higher than 69507476 have the larger IMS bearing

M97/01 = 997 3.8 Carrera NA Engine no. 685*****
6 = 6 cylinders
8 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
***** = cumulative production serial no
Engine numbers higher than 68509791 have the larger IMS bearing

 

[Tamer]

Managed to dig this out of the 911uk forum:

M96/05 = 997 3.6 Carrera NA - Engine no. 695*****
6 = 6 cylinders
9 = design revision
5 = year (2005)
***** = cumulative production serial no
Engine numbers higher than 69507476 have the larger IMS bearing

This seems close to my engine number, which is 695075xx .
Accordingly, my engine has the "larger IMS bearing"
And I guess must be the number of my 'new' engine. Perhaps the DVLA had, been notified and this number as shown in my V5.

If I ever gt a chance, I will make a note of the engine number stamped on the engine itself and compare but so far it looks like good news.

 

[ralphmusic]

Can you take a look at the update to my post in this thread (" Monday, October 17, 2016 6:33 PM ").
I have posted a photo of my engine number as it appears on page four of my service-book. I am assuming this is my original engine number.

Could you compare your engine number on your V5 and one in your service book sticker like mine.

Are they similar?
Thanks.

On my Guarantee & Maintenance book, it has a sticker which has:
Production Number
VIN
Engine Code/Transmission Code
Sales #
Interior Code
Colour Code

The Engine Code indicates engine type (originally MA123) but not engine number. My Porsche Centre could not tell me the engine number (I guess they can't see all of the Production Build data) and you have to find it somewhere on the engine.

The company who did my engine swap noted the original and replacement engine numbers as I asked them for the info. so I could amend the car's DVLA record. These engine numbers matched the original and now DVLA V5 details.