997 Build quality?

Porrohman · Jun 15, 2009

I bought my 10,000 miler 05 C2 two years ago for £56k (over £75k when the finance costs are included) and thought I would be getting a car built to last.

We have a Mercedes A140 that has done over 105,000 miles from new and our only expenditure (excl petrol, tax, insurance and servicing) has been one set of tyres (at 80,000 miles). We also have a Nissan Micra which has done 46,000 miles from new with no expenditure (excluding above items).

However I have done 15,000 miles in my 997 and it has needed a new handbrake system, wheel alignment, 4 new tyres and has just been into Cambridge OPC to rectify yet another oil leak (which I had not identified) which necessitated having the engine out again. It had only been into Norwich OPC a few months ago to rectify an earlier oil leak (unless it is the same one and Norwich failed to rectify it!) Both these "repairs" were done under warrantly and I have been told would have cost around £2500 - £3000 otherwise. I have of course paid for the warranty in the first place.

Then on Saturday I get a warning light on the temperature gauge even though the needle had not moved (I had only just left my house). The coolant level was fine and the engine was not excessively hot and having spoken to Cambridge I decided to carry on. Then 20 miles later my fuel warning indicator came on correctly as I did need to fill up. However this instantly rectified the temperature gauge as the needle then went up to the middle and the flashing warning light went off.

I read with interest the 997 register in the last PCGB magazine regarding reliability issues.

It is a great car to drive but I am wondering whether we should be having these kind of problems on what are premium priced cars and I doubt I will buy another one at this rate.

Jimberland · Jun 15, 2009

Hi Darren,

Sorry to hear of your troubles and I can understand your frustration.

I too have had a few minor issues that i had never experienced in other cars, be that of similar performance or not.
Some people will say you are just unlucky or that is the trouble with buying used, which i can agree with to some extent.
I think the true problem lies in the fact you have an early model like myself and there are know issues with the early cars that have now been ironed out. Sorry if that comes as news to you.
Unfortunately and i hope this doesn't sound patronising, these cars are high performance machines that can be very temperamental and there is no explaining why some of us experience these issues and others don't, whether they are early models or not. I think those of us that do find issues, tend to be the ones who actually drive them rather than leave them in the garage waiting for a sunny day to take to the pub or golf club.

Handbrake - very odd, never heard of that.

Tyres - hard to say as it depends on tyre type, driving style and how new they were when you got the car but I would be very happy with 15k miles, but then i drive my car daily and sometimes very hard.

Oil leak - join the club i am afraid. This is a common problem and one Porsche know of but will not admit is a build fault. Just as well you have the warranty!

Temp gauge - sounds like a very minor bug (i had a similar bug on saturday night with my parking sensor, when in reverse it just emitted a long beep tone whilst reversing, but is fine again now. Odd!). If it keeps doing it then obviously there is a fault that needs fixing under warranty.

I agree with your final point that we shouldn't be experiencing these kinds of problems on such a premium product but as with everything there are always going to be faults experienced by the unlucky few.

Hopefully these bugs don't ruin your experience of ownership longer term because in my opinion they are truly fantastic cars.

Cheers,
James

Gary C · Jun 15, 2009

I suppose Ford or GM or many other large volume manufacturer used to have the money to develop their cars and have raised the expectations (except Peugot, had no end of troubles with our 407, much worse than you 997!)

Where as Porsche have spent its money on developing solutions to the problem of having the engine in the wrong place [

]

Alex L · Jun 15, 2009

My MY08 Turbo is a different league to my old MY05 C2S Cab in terms of build quality. I am on 14k miles now and not even one rattle!!

Yes I have had to change the tyres at about 8000 miles, and decided to do my oil change early at 10k miles - but other than that, nothing.

I did deliberately wait until the 2nd year of production after the model first came out so that Porsche had ironed out all the issues of early cars. This approach seems to be adopted by quite a few guys on various Porsche forums and they swear by it. I am glad I waited.

yan · Jun 15, 2009

Very interesting to hear of others suffering electronic quirks, which can cause time-wasting distraction at a minimum.

I am not convinced that the electronic engineering in the 997 is any better that its predecessor and in my experience has been unreliable. One of the difficulties with such random electronic glitches is that unless the vehicle has logged them as a fault the response from the OPC and/or Porsche is that there is nothing they can do, in fact they seem to start from the stand-point that if no fault is logged ergo there is no fault. Since my previous report on warranty issues I have had, in no particular order:
TPM alerting a flat tyre on ignition (before it had even registered the tyre pressures) which wasn't;
the car has tripped into sleep mode after 1 day;
PCM has become desychronised from the dashboard console;
I have lost interaction with navigation on the dashboard;
I continue to be subject to the car locking itself randomly, (but not consistently) when the bonnet is opened subjecting me to a rather high decibel beep;
On ignition I occasionally get a double-beep - in theory this means there is an alarm fault. (I had a catestrophic alarm failure however the double-beep has not disappeared as a result of fixing this).

The classic explanation is that such faults are software related but if this is the case then I would expect Porsche to recognise a pattern from other customers - this is not the case I am informed. My suspicion therefore is that a certain hardware part is corrupt (and has been since delivery) yet with no means of identifying it what to do...
In this respect I find it rather disappointing that Porsche offer no facility to log such problems particularly since they are repetitive. This would demonstrate a proactive commitment to ironing out problems rather than leaving the customer to put up with them, both in time as well as annoyance, exacerbated naturally by the premium paid in the first place. Whilst Porsche have attempted to look into the bonnet issue providing a solution in a reasonable amount of time is wanting.

Regarding software perse : I have identified 2 software problems which have required addtional code releases (auto-lock, TPM) - this in itself may provide some question as to how capable their testing procedures are which is the other side of building a reliable system.

davidcross · Jun 15, 2009

the more of all this i read the more i believe its luck of the draw and "friday" cars are still about. my 54 plate 997s is superb. its done 23k miles and this year i wont be bothering with the warranty as im hoping its thru the dodgy period and its not missed a beat in the two yrs ive had it. ive heard horror stories with all series 911"S so none are immune to problems. ive had no oil leaks, flashing indicator bulbs or warning lights and i believe i got a good one. They are performance cars and far more reliable than others but if u get a "friday" car u get rid as u wud any other make

davidcross · Jun 16, 2009

all that said, a car costing 70k shud not have continual problems in such a short space of time

DSM · Jun 16, 2009

ORIGINAL: J

Very interesting to hear of others suffering electronic quirks, which can cause time-wasting distraction at a minimum.

I am not convinced that the electronic engineering in the 997 is any better that its predecessor and in my experience has been unreliable. One of the difficulties with such random electronic glitches is that unless the vehicle has logged them as a fault the response from the OPC and/or Porsche is that there is nothing they can do, in fact they seem to start from the stand-point that if no fault is logged ergo there is no fault. Since my previous report on warranty issues I have had, in no particular order:
TPM alerting a flat tyre on ignition (before it had even registered the tyre pressures) which wasn't;
the car has tripped into sleep mode after 1 day;
PCM has become desychronised from the dashboard console;
I have lost interaction with navigation on the dashboard;
I continue to be subject to the car locking itself randomly, (but not consistently) when the bonnet is opened subjecting me to a rather high decibel beep;
On ignition I occasionally get a double-beep - in theory this means there is an alarm fault. (I had a catestrophic alarm failure however the double-beep has not disappeared as a result of fixing this).

Regarding software perse : I have identified 2 software problems which have required addtional code releases (auto-lock, TPM) - this in itself may provide some question as to how capable their testing procedures are which is the other side of building a reliable system.

Hope I'm not pointing out the obvious but you have opened a door in this event? I mean, if you unlock the car then open the bonnet without opening a door, the car will auto- relock and beep at you because the bonnet is open.

madall · Jun 17, 2009

I have to agree, I had a 911 Supersport back in 95 it was an 89 model with the G50, car had 52k on the clock when I bought it and to be honest never had a even a squeak out of it all the way upto 80k.
The build quality is crap on 997's, the paint is terrible and scratches just by looking at it. The dashboards rattle on rough tarmac and the leather on the seats at 50 k look like a car with 80k .
Im probably gonna get ridiculed for my comments but this is from personal experience, Porsche have gone down hll in terms of quality and by no means should a 80+ grand car squeak and vibrate after 20-50k "NO WAY"

yan · Jun 17, 2009

That's a configuration option you are referring to - in my case (and I believe it is the factory default) the car is configured to lock only once you have closed the boot after ~20s and don't open a door (I prefer this configuration as I have just enough time to re-open the car in case I leave the key in the boot - which I have heard of happening...). It works this way 4 times out 5 (roughly) but on the other occasion it decides it will lock-up whilst the bonnet is open with consequent and unexpected loud beep. The seemingly intermittent feature is also usage related in that if you repeatedly open-close the bonnet it will not occur, only in conjunction with driving.

Dylan1 · Jun 17, 2009

ORIGINAL: madall

I have to agree, I had a 911 Supersport back in 95 it was an 89 model with the G50, car had 52k on the clock when I bought it and to be honest never had a even a squeak out of it all the way upto 80k.
The build quality is crap on 997's, the paint is terrible and scratches just by looking at it. The dashboards rattle on rough tarmac and the leather on the seats at 50 k look like a car with 80k .
Im probably gonna get ridiculed for my comments but this is from personal experience, Porsche have gone down hll in terms of quality and by no means should a 80+ grand car squeak and vibrate after 20-50k "NO WAY"

it is a much acknowledged fact that quality is down over the past 20yrs-if you consider the cost of our cars now and compare to real costs 20yrs ago-you will see that they cost about 50% less in real terms now than what they did then-so not surprising really

Black80XSA · Jun 17, 2009

ORIGINAL: J

That's a configuration option you are referring to - in my case (and I believe it is the factory default) the car is configured to lock only once you have closed the boot after ~20s and don't open a door (I prefer this configuration as I have just enough time to re-open the car in case I leave the key in the boot - which I have heard of happening...). It works this way 4 times out 5 (roughly) but on the other occasion it decides it will lock-up whilst the bonnet is open with consequent and unexpected loud beep. The seemingly intermittent feature is also usage related in that if you repeatedly open-close the bonnet it will not occur, only in conjunction with driving.

for what its worthm, and i assume my 987 will be no different, then opening either the front ,or rear boots in my case [

], results in the car relocking itself after about 20 seconds (bar the boot lid which is now popped off its latch). This is a security feature so that if (and we've all done it) you activate the key accidentally in your pocket then the car will relock itself. If you want to have the lids open for longer periods for loading purposes etc then i have to open the driver or passenger door to prevent the relocking.

As to qaulity compared to the 90's..

cars are effectively 50-60% cheaper than then
cars are massed produced at lower cost on effectient process lines, not hand fitted and tinkered as previously
modern leathers are only top surface coated and then lacquered, unlike earlier leathers
modern paints as a result of being water based are a lot softer and have less clarity than the old solvent based ones
there is a lot more technology in a modern car, so more electronics to fail

then again the modern ones are faster, safer, more fuel efficient, more environmentally friendly (?) and require less tinkering at weekends - just turn the key and go [

][

]

dereksharpuk · Jun 17, 2009

ORIGINAL: Black80XSA

As to qaulity compared to the 90's..

cars are effectively 50-60% cheaper than then
cars are massed produced at lower cost on effectient process lines, not hand fitted and tinkered as previously
modern leathers are only top surface coated and then lacquered, unlike earlier leathers
modern paints as a result of being water based are a lot softer and have less clarity than the old solvent based ones
there is a lot more technology in a modern car, so more electronics to fail

then again the modern ones are faster, safer, more fuel efficient, more environmentally friendly (?) and require less tinkering at weekends - just turn the key and go [][]

All true except the hand built bit. 2 years ago I took delivery of a brand new hand built Morgan, built to my spec. I went to the factory at least once a week to watch the construction of my baby, so they knew I was enthusiastic. What a heap of rubbish that turned out to be. The worse car I ever had. It fell to bits, and all they could say was 'They all do that'. No, give me robotic build every time.

Mike Cooper 33 · Jun 17, 2009

I may live to regret saying this but I have a 2008 C4S and have had no problems with it other than a rattle from the sunroof in 13K miles. I think the later ones are better made, but not as well made as the air cooled cars. Mind you, I also have a 993RS and the 997 is a lot easier to drive!

DSM · Jun 17, 2009

I have a September 07 C2S, 9400 miles. It has had no faults at all, the paintwork is unmarked, though it has PPF on the front 1/2 of the bonnet. I've only been back to my OPC once, when I lost a tracker gizmo.

I have serious issues with PCGB over their extended warranty attitude, which I think stinks, I don't think the build quality of the 997 is much better than the two BMs I also have but it's certainly as good and, as said, my car has been faultless.

Famous last words?

Rotorhead · Jun 17, 2009

It's a myth that the earlier air-cooled cars were better built.

Since 1983 I have had 15 Porsches - 8 air-cooled (inc 356B, RS, CS, 964s ,993s) and 7 water-cooled (inc 944T, 986, 987, 996, 997), and I kept the best ones.

It's true that the earlier cars had more of a 'hand finished' feel (with all that's good and bad about that) and the later ones clearly use more consistent production techniques, but I would definitely say the later cars are better built.

Falling prices are not a result of cutting corners on quality, but improvements in production and volumes. A brand new 987 2.9 is barely more expensive than a 1997 986 2.5, and in 'real' terms it's about 60% of the price, yet there have been significant improvements in terms of spec, value and quality.

drmark · Jun 17, 2009

ORIGINAL: dereksharpuk

ORIGINAL: Black80XSA

As to qaulity compared to the 90's..

cars are effectively 50-60% cheaper than then
cars are massed produced at lower cost on effectient process lines, not hand fitted and tinkered as previously
modern leathers are only top surface coated and then lacquered, unlike earlier leathers
modern paints as a result of being water based are a lot softer and have less clarity than the old solvent based ones
there is a lot more technology in a modern car, so more electronics to fail

then again the modern ones are faster, safer, more fuel efficient, more environmentally friendly (?) and require less tinkering at weekends - just turn the key and go [][]

Click to expand...

All true except the hand built bit. 2 years ago I took delivery of a brand new hand built Morgan, built to my spec. I went to the factory at least once a week to watch the construction of my baby, so they knew I was enthusiastic. What a heap of rubbish that turned out to be. The worse car I ever had. It fell to bits, and all they could say was 'They all do that'. No, give me robotic build every time.

Hear, hear.

Mike Cooper 33 · Jun 18, 2009

I don't think it's a myth that the earlier cars are better made. Current Porsches are well made but not much better made than a BMW or a VW Golf, frankly all cars are well made these days with a few exceptions. The 993 has that carved from a solid mass feel you used to get with old Mercedes and the matierials are better too. I agree taht the modern cars are better in many ways and are better value and I would rather drive the modern cars but let's not kid ourselves re quality.

Porsche fundamentally changed their approach to manufacturing with the introduction of the 996, went over to just in time practices and were heavily influenced by Toyota, they brought in consultants from japan to help with this process. They had to do it, the company would not be around now if they had not.

Porrohman · Jun 18, 2009

I agree that the 997 is cheaper in real terms than the earlier models.

What I can not reconcile is why Nissan can make me a £12k car which has not missed a beat in over 45k miles, Mercedes can make me a £16k car which has not missed a beat in over 100k miles but Porsche can not do the same for £70k , offer a shorter warranty than other manufacturers and want to take a further £1300 a year to pay for the warranty which we all have to have as the cars go wrong so often.

Still they are great to drive!!

Alex L · Jun 18, 2009

ORIGINAL: Porrohman
What I can not reconcile is why Nissan can make me a £12k car which has not missed a beat in over 45k miles, Mercedes can make me a £16k car which has not missed a beat in over 100k miles but Porsche can not do the same for £70k

I don't think that the components in the cars you mentioned have to manage the physical stresses that a Porsche would have to - given the increased performance a Porsche has and the typical way a Porsche is driven by it's owner.