997 "S" PDK Gets Bronze

[944s2]

Either the GTR is an awesome piece of kit which appears to defy physics and is built at a loss to build image or a lot of so called sports car manufacturers are going to have to get their fingers out Ignoring the relatively underpowered 2wd 911! how can the 473bhp 1740kg GTR slaughter the 414bhp 1560kg R8 which was darling of press not that long ago? Is the secret its vast torque? And how can such a technically advanced car be built for the price - GT2 performance for Cayman money!

 

[daro911]

Buy Autocar 20/08/08 Group Road Test 997 S PDK vs GT-R vs R8 []

After 40+ years the game has seriously moved on for Porsche if this 3 way test is to be believed of course []

 

[InnerSphere]

ORIGINAL: 944s2 And how can such a technically advanced car be built for the price - GT2 performance for Cayman money!

Bearing in mind Porsche's truly staggering profit figures based on the number of cars they build, my guess is the actual production costs are not vastly different - only the profit margins are

 

[spyderman]

Nissan build lots of cheap cars so they can spread the cost of R&D and production of specialist models. Porsche don't have that luxury. And this could be exactly why they're working their way towards total ownership of VW...

 

[Richard Dawson]

I have posted elsewhere before about the complacency of Porsche and in my view the loss of a particular porsche character. In that test forget the extra power or lower price of the GT-R it still seems that it has more character than the Porsche. I was looking at a sorry 996 in my friends Bentley garage yesterday (owner had a specialist rebuild failed engine and the thing now is not running right) and did have features to make it stand out from a Skyline? If it did I don't see them. As ever the proof will be in the eating, but Porsche i think need to move themselves forward as whilst it may not be the Skyline that kills them as Porsche owners seem to faint at the horror of driving something with an allegedly less prestigous badge but others will. Perhaps that is why they wanted VW so bad to remove some of the other clones from the party like the Laudi/Baudi/R8 combo. Frankly I'll suggest a Skyline is more interesting, different and characterful to make it stand out more if thats what floats your boat than the bland competiton. Now there is progress for the japanese. Didn't someone dismiss the challenge of the japanese small car some years ago and end up as a result with a home car industry that is stuffed?

 

[944s2]

Even allowing for Japanese efficiency and Porsche profits still a BIG difference in price Just hope they dont bring out a 300bhp non turbo @ £30k

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: 944s2 Even allowing for Japanese efficiency and Porsche profits still a BIG difference in price Just hope they dont bring out a 300bhp non turbo @ £30k

Lets hope Euro Sports car manufacturers smell the starbucks and fight back [&o]

 

[944s2]

Being brutal its virtually a new car and engine from ground up for £52k whereas the similarly powerful 911 turbo with a how old basic shell & engine? admittedly updated £106k I'm getting more amd more depressed by the minute!

 

[spyderman]

OK, so maybe as a Porsche owner its sour grapes on my behalf, but what a crap comparison! GT-R: 480 bhp twin-turbo Carerra S: 381 bhp no turbo Far more sensible would be to test it against the 997 Turbo with PDK - but of course they can't wait for that.

 

[CHewlett]

All very interesting but I have a couple of issues, the first, journalists need to write this sort of stuff every time a new car is unveiled otherwise no one would buy their magazines and the manufacturers wouldn't provide them with cars and second, what's the Nissan going to be worth in 3 years, I bet the Porsche will hold it's value better, look better and last longer! Having said that (I'm feeling better already), Porsche shouldn't become complacent and competition should be good for us poor consumers. ;-)

 

[jonathanw]

I dont think you can compare the status of a Nissan with a Porsche. In one of the car magazines the pitched a standard gen 2 Carrera against an Aston vantage and the Porsche came out on top. A supercharged scoobie or mit evo can be faster. How about comparing like with like. A recent Drivers republic test comparing the R8, Carrera 2S and the GTR showed that the Porsche could out drag the GTR from rest with launch control. So what. We live in the real world not smoking starts all the time. Yes the GTR is good but give me a Porsche anyday . I cant wait for my new Porsche , to me the Nissan is a bit too vulgar!!

 

[Chris5150]

I think porsche has become too complacent, and its great to see cars like the R8 and the GTR taking a bite, it all helps move things on, and lets hope that such stiff competition does indeed create waves at Porsche and makes them up their game. As a previous 997 GT3, 997 C4S owner, I must say I always felt a little short changed by Porsche, yes undeniably a great drivers car, but they never seemed to put enough effort into the interiors, something I always found when moving to a differant marque. The BMW M6 interior and technology was light years ahead of Porsche, now I am currently driving a C63 Merc, and again its just a lot nicer place to be. I dont know if I will ever own another Porsche to be honest, I am not brand/snob orientated so the value of the badge has never mattered to me, and the way Porsche's competition is at the moment coupled with the 'datedness' ( if thats a word ! ) of the Porsche experience as a whole, I do not crave being back in one. Like I say I hope that Porsche does up its game somewhat, their arrogance of being top of the pile is starting to wane somewhat.

 

[aardvark1614]

Nissan GT-R and 997 I was at Silverstone on Tuesday 19th August and Nissan had their GT-R on show. Some observations ( I used to be involved in car development and build ) 1. The Nissan is impressively in the flesh, excellent build quality, body shape, panel fit and Dan Dare interior with quality fit and seats. 2. The GT-R is big, very large even in a dark colour. It will not be as easy to drive on tight roads as the 997 3. The GT-R has two turbos the 997 zero turbos The GT-R has four wheel drive the 997 two wheel drive. 4. If performance is an issue then compare apples to apples - journalists don't hence diesel engines with turbos always out gun non turbo petrol, V8 v. flat six bla bla bla. 4 wheel v. 2 5. Price is dissconnected from cost.Porsche make an average of £15000 net profit ( after all costs ) per unit so the 997 must have even higher net profit per unit based on its average selling price being higher ie its price is more than Boxter/Cayman . Porsche are free to price as they wish, I think they are price leaders for their niche, ie price setters 6. Porsce cost to build will prbably be similar or less than Nissan so pricing is a strategic decision. When competition price higher a la R8, Lambo, Ferari etc it's difficult to respond Pricing always sets margin in niche car markets. Porsche are now being attacked from below and above. They are the target as their margin is greedy. Just some observations I think you purchase a 997 because it is a brilliant drivers car with a magical engine and unique cornering quality. You may experiance similar feelings with a GT-R but save £25000 or so.

 

[Chris5150]

Agree with all that Aardvark, I think Porsche has well and truly peaked profitability wise, their margins are greedy and are not sustainable long term, perhaps this is why their sales are some 20% down on the prv yr. They are not really bringing anything new or innovative to the party at all, I suppose thats why Im down on the Porsche Marque at the moment. The thing is I used to see Porsche's and go 'wow' look at that, nowadays no one bats an eyelid at any of them,myself incuded...was having a good look around a GT2 the other day, yes I am sure its a rocket ship and a great car to drive but they have become all too common and derivative of the previous generations. The cars they have brought out recently are nothing to look at either, I mean the boxster, the Cayman, the Cayenne..yes all good cars, but please Porsche can we get some better stylists in. I really do have my fingers crossed for the new Panamera, hope thats not been hit with the same ugly stick!. Id love to see a collaboration between Porsche & Alfa..Imagine if the Brera was made by Porsche and went & handled like a 997, jeez my deposit would be down tommorrow. So come on Porsche move it o a bit please, bring back the wow factor to me

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: Chris5150 but please Porsche can we get some better stylists in. I really do have my fingers crossed for the new Panamera, hope thats not been hit with the same ugly stick!.

Check out Page12 of this weeks Autocar and the ugly stick has been real busy but on the other hand it didn't harm KN sales []

 

[okellyt]

I think Chris has made a good point - Porsche seems to be made up of accountants and engineers. Focus is on costs/margin and engineering excellence not design The move to direct injection and PDK is quite innovative as I haven't driven a better box than PDK yet, the cut in carbon emissions and increase in power for the entry models are impressive but its all hidden away under the skin. If you look at the article the comparison of MPG and CO2 for performance has the Porsche winning by miles - this will become an increasingly important factor for ownership costs and resale values over the next few years whether we like it or not. In the real world size of the car is key - this is where Porsche and Lambo's win - they are small so you can hoon them along UK back roads. The Audi and Nissan though great cars are much wider, as an average driver this would kill my confidence and therefore speed on back roads. ie I'd enjoy more of the Porsche's performance more of the time. Lets judge Porsche by their competing flagship cars the next Gen GT3 and Turbo, which are a much closer comparison in terms of design and intent and in Audi's case cost - talking to a dealer they say the average R8 out the door is nearly £100k when specced. but I think the message is clear - with competition as it is, Porsche had better move the game on and keep prices down or they'll loose a lot more sales.

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: daro911

ORIGINAL: Chris5150 but please Porsche can we get some better stylists in. I really do have my fingers crossed for the new Panamera, hope thats not been hit with the same ugly stick!.

Check out Page12 of this weeks Autocar and the ugly stick has been real busy but on the other hand it didn't harm KN sales []

 

[robertpoole]

It's not surprising to see so much discussion of the 997/R8/GT-R test in Autocar. I'm not sure what to make of this yet. But have there been any comments in the Forum on the full road test in Autocar on 13 August? The 997 PDF came out with FOUR stars not five and it was concluded that the R8 is the 'sensible supercar'. In a huff, I wrote the following to Autocar but it wasn't published. Here it is - any views? Dear Sirs, How sensible is 'sensible'? Your Road Test (13 August) of the new Porsche 911 (PDK) makes interesting reading. Can you explain how the Audi R8 is more 'sensible' and would be 'better everyday'? It costs 24% more, returns only 66% of the 911's fuel economy, and emits 55% more g CO2/km. Both offer very similar, fantastic performance. Am I missing something? Robert Poole Sheffield

 

[garyw]

Robert, good response [] I think we think the same as you, but sadly it seems trendy to knock the 911 at the moment... garyw

 

[Chris5150]

Excellant response indeed, shame it didnt get a reply. I myself would pick a Porsche over the Audi anyday,especially as its GT3 money. I really do try not to knock Porsche and I suppose my criticisms are based purely on looks really as engine/handling wise they are superb cars. Its just that back in the 80's a Porsche Turbo with that whale tale spoiler etc was a real sight with a real wow factor, nowadays I am struggling to find them attractive to look at at all, and worringly the stuff in the pipeline is not exactly lighting my fire either. I think its a case of the rest of the car industry has moved substantially forward Porsche simply hasnt ( again this is just looks I am talking about ). I am frustrated by Porsche not wrapping that superb engineering up in a more upto date and 'wow' factor package...possibly the evolution rather than revolution phase for the 911 needs rethinking, because its going backwards. Mind you I think Ferrari has the same problem, struggling to see beauty in their designs nowadays when in the 80's they were stunning, maybe its just there are so many cars out there its tough to be 'wow' in this day and age..the R8 I suppose is quite futuristic and I dont like the looks of that at all, so maybe you should just ignore me as I have no idea what Im on about obviously...time for a lie down I think