997 Turbo PDK?

[colloc]

Hi,
Does anyone know when the Turbo will get the PDK treatment?
Noticed that the latest delivery of Turbos have the touch screen PASM but not the direct injection engines or PDK. Is this a gen 1.5?
Sports exhaust doesn't seem to be available on the PDK cars either at the moment
Thanks in advance.

 

[mottle]

hi, from what i understand porsche are not bringing pdk to the turbo yet. It has something to do with the amount of torque it already has and that the clutch system wouldn't cope with any more. Hopefully some one reading this could add some more info on the subject?? cheers m.

 

[Lancerlot]

ORIGINAL: mottle
hi, from what i understand porsche are not bringing pdk to the turbo yet. It has something to do with the amount of torque it already has and that the clutch system wouldn't cope with any more. Hopefully some one reading this could add some more info on the subject?? cheers m.

I'm not sure that particular rumour rings completely true. This type of gearbox was invented by Andolphe Kegresse just before the outbreak of World War II, but he never developed a working model. The first actual DCT's came along in the 1980s when computers to control the shifts were compact enough. The PDK (Porsche Dopplekupplung) was used in the Porsche 956 and 962 Le Mans race cars - producing in excess of 700 BHP with commensurate torque curves! [8D]

It's more likely to be a marketing cycle. The Carrera has had 3 year's life and is now due for an evolution, whereas the Turbo has been around just 2 years or so. In the absence of any official info. I would expect a PDK Turbo to be available in 2010 or 11 model years. [8|]

Regards,
Clive

 

[yan]

I'd go along with that : more likely marketing over function - don't see engineering problem with beefing up clutch and other necessary parts if required, except maybe compromising the shift smoothness. Also I can't see them running the Tiptronic (5 gears) for much longer. (Nissan have done it already).

 

[DSM]

I think everyone's correct. Porsche have said that the current PDK is able to cope with not that much more torque than the S has.

However, I am sure a version could and will be developed but it maybe isn't ready yet.

 

[colloc]

I tend to go along with Lancelot's comments, if they had it fitted to the 962's then they know how to build the gearbox to last.
The marketing cycle sounds about right, I notice that PSE is not available on the Gen 2 just yet either.
Could be wishful thinking on my part but with all the press comments regarding a Japanese car lapping the ring quicker than a Turbo lately I am hoping that the Gen 2 Turbo will be an 'S' to re-establish themselves.

 

[Rotorhead]

The PDK used in the current cars is a development of Audi's DSG, and bears no direct relationship with that used in the earlier race cars.

The 'facelift' 997TT is fairly imminent, with or without PDK.

A second production run of 997GT3s will follow the Panamera later in 2009 (10MY), and won't have PDK.

 

[Alex L]

There is a 700Nm limited PDK box available now; so there should be no reason why the Turbo/GT2 at 680Nm cannot have this fitted immediately.

I believe the DI new engine though is optimized for PDK, so the Turbo won't be getting PDK until 1) after the Panamera is released 2) it loses it's current GT1-engine.

Facelift Turbo should be out for MY2010 (so end of 2009). This has been everyone's estimate for about the last 2 years and I have not heard any rumours about bringing that forward.

 

[yan]

ORIGINAL: oliver

The PDK used in the current cars is a development of Audi's DSG, and bears no direct relationship with that used in the earlier race cars.

Oliver

I may be misreading you but are you saying that PDK was developed in partnership or such-like with Audi? Also is the production PDK even made by the same gearbox manufacturer as Audi? Would appreciate to hear more...

 

[yan]

ORIGINAL: Alex L

There is a 700Nm limited PDK box available now; so there should be no reason why the Turbo/GT2 at 680Nm cannot have this fitted immediately.

I believe the DI new engine though is optimized for PDK, so the Turbo won't be getting PDK until 1) after the Panamera is released 2) it loses it's current GT1-engine.

Facelift Turbo should be out for MY2010 (so end of 2009). This has been everyone's estimate for about the last 2 years and I have not heard any rumours about bringing that forward.

Rumours: PDK will be available on MY06 Turbo - what happened to that one? What credibility any rumour about this manufacturer? Just keeping an open mind...

 

[Rotorhead]

ORIGINAL: J

Oliver

I may be misreading you but are you saying that PDK was developed in partnership or such-like with Audi? Also is the production PDK even made by the same gearbox manufacturer as Audi? Would appreciate to hear more...

My understanding is that Porsche used the Audi DSG model, but developed their latest PDK in conjunction with ZF.

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: J

ORIGINAL: Alex L

There is a 700Nm limited PDK box available now; so there should be no reason why the Turbo/GT2 at 680Nm cannot have this fitted immediately.

I believe the DI new engine though is optimized for PDK, so the Turbo won't be getting PDK until 1) after the Panamera is released 2) it loses it's current GT1-engine.

Facelift Turbo should be out for MY2010 (so end of 2009). This has been everyone's estimate for about the last 2 years and I have not heard any rumours about bringing that forward.

Rumours: PDK will be available on MY06 Turbo - what happened to that one? What credibility any rumour about this manufacturer? Just keeping an open mind...

Well then assume AT LEAST MY2010! This is not from Porsche though, this is from people that know Porsche employees and have leaked info. Asking an OPC is like asking a magic 8 ball!

By the way, ZF make the Porsche PDK and they do 2 versions: http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=997&Number=455807&Searchpage=1&Main=455785&Words=700Nm&topic=&Search=true#Post455807

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: colloc
Sports exhaust doesn't seem to be available on the PDK cars either at the moment

Good luck with a Sports Exhaust on a Turbo! Porsche abandoned the project as they couldn't get it sounding good enough.

If you want a good sounding Turbo I am afraid you will have to go aftermarket - something after the GT1 engine is dropped I wouldn't go near with a barge pole!

 

[yan]

I was told that Porsche designed=>specced the requirement and then asked 2 gearbox manufacturers if they could deliver the goods. I don't unfortunately remember the names but obviously ZF was one of them. If this is how they operated in this case, then this might suggest that Porsche asked them to build the 700Nm capability with a particular engine or engines in mind... Just a thought.

 

[Alex L]

ORIGINAL: J
this might suggest that Porsche asked them to build the 700Nm capability with a particular engine or engines in mind... Just a thought.

Of course! [8D]

The 2 ZF gearboxes correspond exactly to new N/A Carrera (420Nm) and the current Turbo and GT2 cars which are both 680Nm - so again just under.

7 DT 45 (max. 450Nm)
7 DT 70 (max. 700Nm)

Note that even with a replacement after-market exhaust you would hit the 700Nm threshold for a Turbo. For a simple Stage II after-market kit (Exhaust, ECU, Air-Filter) you could be up to 800Nm. Therefore PDK would be the first restriction for aftermarket tuners when this is introduced (then of course you would have the problem of an unproven strength engine dealing with the released power as the GT1 engine will be gone also). So for next gen Turbo owners you better hope they don't make the Turbo sound like a vacuum cleaner again or you will be stuck with it!! []

 

[johnwoods41]

The PDK is a development of Audis box but Porsche gave it to Audi to develop on in the first place, then took it back to develop even more and put into the current 997's

 

[sawood12]

It's probably the case that VW and Audi are using it under license from Porsche. I thought Porsche had the patent on the double-clutch gearbox? If so I wonder how Nissan have one on their GT-R?

 

[yan]

Ferrari offer an electro-hydraulic operated gearbox in both the Ferrari 599 and the Maserati GTS (change time ~100ms) - it reminded me that there are other alternatives to PDK...

Had a run with the GTS last week - whilst I was not necessarily averse to the Tiptronic style "switches" on the PDK system the F1 paddles are far more intuitive to use IMO. Whoever programmed/designed the downshifts/exhaust acoustics could teach Porsche a thing or two...

 

[Rotorhead]

I've driven the Maserati (Gran Turismo S) and their gearbox is a very clever application - one of the best of its kind IMO.

Drove from London to Modena ('Coals to Newcastle'[]) through France and Switzerland and down into Italy via the Simplon pass. The accoustics going through the tunnels and mountains was awesome, but after a time, the automated throttle 'blip' did become a bit comical. Great party trick, but it's not actually the driver so a bit of a pose really.

 

[Lancerlot]

Interesting thread this one.

The 997TT is pretty well up there as a Sports/GT road car already in my opinion and only really lacks an up-to-date transmission to compete on level terms with the latest opposition.

In the last 9 months or so I've been lucky enough to drive the Lambo Gallardo Superleggera with E-Shift (good), the Ferrari F430 (better) and the Ferarri 430 Scuderia (exceptional). []

I also had 4 days with a 997 PDK and it's superb - not quite as good as the Ferrari - but it's getting there.

A 997 (or 998) TT with PDK will be an awesome piece of kit, make no mistake.

As an aside, the Nissan GTR box seems to be giving some of its first customers problems and at 20K USD a pop and no warranty that must be a real headache - ouch! []
Regards,
Clive
PS. Porsche uses buttons - always has. For paddle-shift you need a different manufacturer!