Accident Damaged 996

[Keggers]

Found a '99 996 that seemed too keenly priced to be true, until the dealer told me the full story (he volunteered it). Selling through a Mercedes/Audi dealership who have taken it as a part exchange. Its a 2 owner 79,000 miles C2 tiptronic, BUT it was damaged and repaired (by the same Mercedes/Audi dealership) around 12 months ago. They assure me they have full documentation showing the extent of the damage and the repair undertaken, and that it was a low speed impact and there was no structural or suspension damage with only panel damage to front bumper, wing and door.

They are also happy to have it inspected at an OPC (at my cost). Price includes 6 month warranty on engine and gearbox (dealer warranty - not an OPC warranty).

It is selling here in Ireland so the price includes import tax. If you adjust for import tax, its priced at about £15k (€40k less about €18k tax) if you were to compare it to UK prices. Similar cars here are selling at mid to high €50k's (compared to €40k).

My gut reaction is to walk away. Its located over 2 hours away so will take all of my Saturday to go and check it out, so not sure its worth the hassle.

But, do you think I'm being too harsh. If the accident damage is actually limited to panel damage and they have documentation to prove this, and an OPC inspection comes up ok, is it potentially still a good buy at that price. My main concern is being able to sell it on in a few years, particularly as the next buyer won't have the comfort of talking directly to the guys that fixed the original damage.

Interested in any thoughts (but I think I've already made up my mind to leave it!).

 

[Richard_Hamilton]

There was a lot of debate on the issue on the General Forum which may be of interest: http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/fb.asp?m=265556.

 

[Keggers]

Thanks Richard. Some good advice in that other thread. I think it just confirms my gut instinct to leave it for someone else.

 

[Diesel130]

ORIGINAL: Richard Hamilton

There was a lot of debate on the issue on the General Forum which may be of interest: http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/fb.asp?m=265556.

Greg,

Yes, BUT ... the article Richard pointed you towards is referring to a car that has been flagged by DVLA as Cat D or Cat C which is an entirely different kettle of fish compared to a car that has just has some panel damage repaired in the past. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of cars out there that have had some bodywork done in the past, which was minor and which - if repaired properly - will be undetectable in the future. The big question, is whether the one you're looking at has been flagged as a Cat D or not.

My original thoughts were that if the price is 10,000 less than you were expecting, then it is a Cat D - otherwise, why would the dealer reduce the price so much - unless the market over there is not favourable to (relatively) high mileage 8 year old tiptronics. If that is the case, then they are lying about the seriousness of the damage. A Cat D car is one where the cost of the repairs (done at an approved bodyshop with genuine Porsche parts) plus the salvage value of the car comes to more than the vaue of the repaired car. If we're only talking about 2 panels and a bumper, that won't be the case.

However, I'd be surprised if a Merc/Audi main dealer would touch a Cat D car. So, if the car is not accident damage recorded, then you could be looking at a good buy. Future purchasers will not know about the past (unless they specifically ask, in which case you are obliged to be honest with your answers). I'm sure many other cars of that age you will look at will have had some panel repairs in the past and in all probablility, the previous owner will not know anything about it.

I bought my car from a non-porsche main dealer and (think) I got a very good deal. They had taken it in p/ex and weren't particularly interested in selling different brands - and I guess, not getting many people contacting them just to see if they had a 911. It was good becuase I got the main dealer comfort and professional approach, with virtually trade prices - they're alternative would be to pass it on in the trade, so if they can made a few ££ by selling direct, that's good for everyone.

Just my thoughts - don't dismiss it if it is just normal run-of-the-mill minor panel repairs.

 

[Richard_Hamilton]

Do they have insurance Cat "ratings" in Ireland? I wasn't passing comment, but I have to say that I am always wary of any kind of declared damage. It is never going to be less serious than I would like it to be. One may be saving money by buying such a car, but it will also be worth less when you sell it. It would always be nagging at the back of my mind, every time I drove it. Not for me, but each to his own.

 

[Keggers]

I checked and the car is not recorded as a write-off (or of any damage) at all under the Irish equivalent of HPI.

Gets my mind thinking again about it given Diesel's comments, but I'm also prone to the same thoughts that Richard has, i.e. it would always sit in the back of my mind wondering whether I had been given the true story.

 

[Diesel130]

Given a free choice of course anyone would prefer a car that has never been damaged compared to one that has been repaired.

The point I was trying to make is so many cars will have had some accident damage in their life that you won't necessarily know about - especially if you're buying from a dealer or buying a car that has had several owners - so if you happen to know about minor damage does it matter ?

Our Golf had an 'incident' with a lorry on the A14 resulting in some panel damage. Nothing structural, nothing mechanical and it was all repaired by the best bodyshop in East Anglia. Now, if / when we come to trade it in, it is unlikely the dealer (main or otherwise) will ask about its history [if they do, I'll be honest with my response]. The car will be cleaned, serviced and appear on the forecourt of a VW dealer (or whereever). The dealer will sell it on, having done an HPI check with nothing showing. I don't believe an inspection will uncover anything either - so customer will buy perfect car and be happily oblivious that it had been repaired at some time in its past.

The thing is, I don't know the statistics, but surely 1 in 3 or 4 cars will have had some bodywork done on them in their life. To me it all comes down to the severity of the accident. Personally, I wouldn't want to touch a car that has had to be on a jig to be restraightened, but if someones dinged a wing or door then fine, provided its been repaired well - that's life.

By the way, the people who set up dent busters or dent devils or whatever they're called, started off by repairing brand new Volvos that were imported into Ipswich docks which had got damaged en-route. Things bumping into them on the boats; people walking on bonnets and roofs during transit (yes, really). So even the brand new car may have had panel repairs.

 

[Diesel130]

BTW: Have been to Dublin on business quite a few times and what stuck me was how many small / cheap hatchbacks and/or Jap imports are over there. Very few 'interesting' cars - so it must be quite something to have a 996 over there. Is this due to high tax and/or insurance or the import tax you were mentioning ?

 

[Keggers]

The tax certainly plays a big part. Makes cars a hell of alot more expensive. Around €18000 extra on a 996 makes you think twice. They then ping you for extra road tax if you have a large engine car (over €1,100 per year on my 3L 944) and the insurance is crazy too.

Still doesn't stop some of us though!

By the way, thanks for your comments. Have actually requested some more details on the damage to the car. Will probably still leave it but worth investigating further I think.

 

[beershark]

Hi Keggers,

I started the thread that was mentioned above but walked away from the deal. The car was a Cat C and not a D as the seller declare, no history and missing services. I was also given misleading information.

However, your situation is different and I agree with the comments above.

If the car hasnt been registered as written off then it would imply that the damage wasnt TOO serious (what is TOO serious?), however, the owner may not have declared the damage (uninsured, high excess etc.) and may have sold it as a damaged repairable in which case it COULD be a Cat A/B/C or D eqv in Ireland.

If the car has full history, bills etc and you can find out from the previous owner the extent of the damage it might be worth considering.

I would definately get OPC to check it out or preferable the OPC bodyshop who are better suited to look at it from that perspective. I spoke to an OPC bodyshop re my investigation and you could get a 4 wheel alignment done but, if the chasis is only slightly out then the amount of adjustment in the rest of the setup could balance or MASK the problem. The check out the chasis properly will cost 300/400 I would guess. Up on a ramp, bumpers off to get access to the specific chasis points and I seem to remember wheels off as well.

But saying that, you may well be looking at other cars that have had similar issues in their life abd just not be aware of it.

If its cheap enough, and your prepared to spend a little money checking it out and its the right spec then its worth considering. If not, then its always a bit of a chance.

Regarding a warranty, they are probablylegaly required to sell you the car with a warranty. Aks them if you could pay the difference between the 'standard' warranty they offer and the OPC one, I am sure that would be OK and worth the xtra.

Good luck,

Rob

 

[denisoreilly]

Greg how did you get on did you go to see the car?

 

[Keggers]

No, didn't end up making the drive down to see it. Asked for documentation supporting the level of damage and the repair and got only limited info back.

The documentation I did see told a bit of a different story to the one I had been told though, and suggested that there had actually been structural damage and it had needed jig work etc. Lost confidence in the whole thing at that point so decided to leave it for someone else to have a go with. Too many things just weren't adding up.

 

[denisoreilly]

Wise reaction Greg.

I have seen the car online, but if it doesnt feel right now it never will.

there appear to be quit a few for sale online now, some in Dublin on www.carzone.ie

some clean looking low mileage ones too.

Best of luck with the search.

 

[Keggers]

Same car is now for sale at another dealer (in Wicklow for those of you in Ireland) for €15,000 more!

 

[Paul 944 s2]

I have just purchased a damaged 1986 944 Lux, this is recorded as a Cat C. The total extent of the damage is a cracked tail light lens, broken rear bumper and a small dent to the rear panel. I am well on the way to having it fixed at a fraction of the cost quoted, using second hand parts. An OPC quoted the previous owner circa £4200 to repair, it was this high price that made the insurance company record this as Cat C.
I am more than happy with my purchase and know that not all cars recorded as Cat C have had extensive damage, so this is always worth bearing in mind, Paul

 

[penfold944]

Hi Keggs,

if its the dealer I think it is down country ( and I suspect it is as they had that car there quite a while back ), I bought my boxster S from him. He wanted to charge me a lot to get the car to dublin to get it inspected. I was worried it has RMS and he assured me the warranty would cover it if I found it.

Needless to say, when I went to buy the extended warranty 6 months later the car had RMS and the delaer wouldnt take or return my calls and I ended up having to get it fixed myself ( well, Porsche covered most of the cost ).

Better off steering away from that car - and dealer...

 

[Keggers]

Hi there Alan. I actually bought myself a different 996 privately a month or so back (and have OPC warranty on it so can relax!), so have already steered well away from that car (when it was at the previous dealer for sale). Given this guy has bumped the price up €15k from the price when I was looking at it in Limerick just a month or so previously (€40k to €55k) I was just a bit sceptical as to whether anyone looking at it would get the full story, so thought it was worth a quick post on here in case anyone else was looking at it and didn't know the background.

By coincidence though, the car I did buy was bought by the previous owner from the same dealer. I only removed the dealer's sticker from the back window the other week! The history on this one has been fully checked though with previous owners and the OPC (plus I have the warranty) so I'm fine, but strange coincidence.

 

[penfold944]

Funnily enough, that car came up in conversation today in Mondello. There was someone there in the trade who knew that car and to be fair he was quite up front with me that it didnt have any major work done on it. He was aware what happened it - but did say the guy who repaired it could be a bit hit and miss...

Anyway, its a bit too old for what I'm looking for... Now if I just had the budget for a 3.6 facelift

 

[denisoreilly]

Hey guys, bare in mind the new dealer migh not know the history? Not all car dealers are shady you know! cars move around the trade, stories don't!

 

[Keggers]

Thats a fair point Denis. Based on what Alan's saying it sounds like the damage wasn't as bad as it had appeared from my discussions with the original dealer anyway, but your right that its unfair to assume that the background has been fully disclosed to the guy currently selling.