Any opinions please.

[stupornaut]

Hi All,

I've just joined the forum, and after years of thinking about Porsche ownership, its become apparent that action is required and its time to get on with it.
I've come to the realisation that I'm becoming too old and soft for my motorbikes and am still way too young for the Touareg Ive been driving for the last couple of years!

So.. I've started the search for a nice C4 964... I'm an Engineer and certainly not scared of oily things but initially I would prefer something I can just drive and enjoy with normal servicing for a couple of years without having to get into rebuilds and resprays and such..(is that what everyone is looking for??) Not too worried about milage.. but the budget would really need to be low to mid teens £.

As a starter, I'd really appreciate any opinions on the advertisement copied below, there seems to have been a lot of work done here, but I wondered if any of you would find the mileage off-putting, and what you think of the price asked.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201144426566027

Manual, Coupe, 160,000 miles, Black. 964 Carrera 4 Coupe. Black sports leather interior. Full engine rebuild undertaken by RPM approximately 6,000 miles and 12 months ago. Cup wheels and tear drop mirrors. Momo steering wheel. Lowering springs. Factory air conditioning fitted but needs maintenance. This car has benefited from extensive work and has 20 stamps in the service book from a combination of main dealer and independent specialists. RPM have completed approximately £1500 worth of mechanical work in preparing the car for sale. This work includes re-bushing the front lower arms and undertaking a full geometry. A solid and enjoyable 964 with an excellent service history. The 964 is finally receiving the critical acclaim that it so deserves. Although the Carrera 2 will always be the preferred car for track driving, the Carrera 4 is in our opinion the better choice of car for a daily driver with excellent handling and stability in all weather conditions. With prices in ascension, a good 964 is a great place to put your money

Thanks very much,

CT

 

[turbo jonny]

I think the best deals are privite if you shop around. winter is my best hunting time from experience. You will be able to buy a lower
mileage car for mid-teens.Dont dismiss targas or tiptronics either , they tend to have had an easier life and are cheaper and great
to drive too ! Get Adrian Streathers guidebook & take your time.

I was a biker for 20 years but i dont miss them now im getting older & found the joys of air cooled 911s !

 

[alexjc4]

That is a nice looking one, but for 17k you would want perfection. Hopefully the trader will be realistic about this esp at this time of year.

There's plenty of scope for knocking the price down. A PPI will pick up plenty.

The abs and high pressure hydraulics for 4wd and brake booster, need to be faultess, if the pump runs for a long time on cold start up, or the abs pump is sticking theres probably £1k to spend.

So, aside from checking the engine bill is nice and big, check every electrical item works including the 5 servo motors and three blower motors in the hvac system, roof, seat adjustments in all directions.

The shocks will need to have been replaced at some point ideally for bilstein hds (stainless steel) or better.

The brakes need to have been recently overhauled, new pads discs and slider/spring plates, calipers resealed. Cost would be £1k to have this done if it hasnt been already.

Tyres will run to £400 if they need replacing either due to old age or wear.

 

[Steve Brookes]

For what you want it for it sounds a good choice. RPM are well regarded. The full rebuild is nice to have for peace of mind. There don't seem to be a lot of C4 coupes for sale at the moment so I don't think you'll get them to move much on the price.

Unfortunately, unless you buy a mint, very expensive garage queen, there WILL be some rust issues that you'll have to live with and fix as you go along. A favourite place is rust under the windscreen. Usually you'll see some bubbling next to it as a sign of problems underneath. However, no bubbling is no guarantee...there were no bubbles on mine but when we went to change the screen this week (I decided it was time for a new one)...it was full of rust underneath and is now being treated. Simple jobs often turn in to big jobs on 964s.

 

[mcgc0]

Not a bad looker. I would suspect that RPM are selling on behalf of the owner so there's some movement there on the price. I can vouch and recommend RPM and their work - my own C4 was from there and they do the odd bit now and again.

An engineer myself, it's quite an easy car to get your head around once you know where everything is. There is no perfect and used car (an oxymoron). Well looked after car mechanically and documented as such with as many receipts as possible is the place to be (go through each receipt to spot where and what parts have been replaced over the years).

Transmission generally bullet proof, but shaft boots go. Dampers checked, original fitments will last ages but nice to have new ones (Centre Gravity for mine). Can keep an eye on oil consumption - 1.5L per 650 miles is the handbook quote. If it ain't dripping much (but it will a bit) and not burning oil years from now then good. With the rebuild all will be good.

Discs/pads cheap and easy to do yourself. All cabin instrumentation should work, seat switches can play up (connectors under seats need checking if the case). Manual use of the rear spoiler should work (and with no knackered bearing rumble). Get hold of Adrian Streather's 964 manual for any braking, A/C and other checks of you want to do that. If anything's iffy I know RPM would definitely check and sort beforehand for you.

All in all probably all fine and dandy. Time to haggle the price.

 

[stupornaut]

Guys thanks very much for the replies, I'm really glad I asked.
Good to hear positive reviews of the dealer too. I have not seen this car yet and it is a long way from me (Im in the Hebrides) so its great to get experienced advice as long trips for nothing are disheartening and can of course cloud judgement..
I think this car is interesting because although to me the price and mileage seem high, there is the positive offset of the work done and the positive feedback on RPM..... tricky choices.

I was hoping winter would be a good time to both sell a 4x4 and buy a sportscar, but there has not seemed to be many manual coupes around, I'm sure it seemed a busier market last year.

Maybe just behind the curve as usual!

CT

 

[mcgc0]

Yes it's got high miles and what seems a price or value that is going to creep up anyway. Maybe that's the way things are going, unless you are prepared to sit it out for a while and carry on searching for what may be a bargain later, but who knows. Take 2k off and start there (Darren will hate me!).

It's a full engine rebuild (not top-end, as you'll get to hear a lot about) and that's a ball park anything around, or more, than £7-8k. If Ollie at RPM says it's a good one and sound all round I would believe him. You have little touches spent so far such as clear lenses (inc side repeaters), teardrop mirrors and I'm sure more here and there (Cup 1 wheels are nice too). Black interior is my preference, but dammed if I could find the C4 I wanted with that - you'd be surprised how not often you come across a full black interior (and you have the sports option seats too).

Sounds like I work for RPM, but don't! As a fellow spanner with hours of idle chat with Ollie, if he says mechanically it's there (and with few months guarantee in there somewhere) then it's good. Do though bear in mind Steve's comment re common corrosion points - any close up pics will help.

Maybe line a few up for viewing and make a couple of days of it...

HTH

 

[gregmarshall]

Marcus doesn't work for RPM; but he is on 10%...

 

[gregmarshall]

I agree with the note on HVAC working correctly - check it thoroughly. If you want to witness the servo motors moving you can see them by removing the plastic drip tray under the bonnet. These are not made any more and are rare to find.

At 160,000 the engine rebuild (I believe) is a good thing. Make sure it's 100% oil tight and this may be worth a visual inspection as the undertray is a bit of an oil catcher. If there's paperwork and it's a full rebuild look for main shell bearings on the invoice as well as upgraded engine studs (993 or race versions are essential on a 964 rebuild)

Test the ABS on a test drive - make sure there's no wheels locking - can be a nightmare to fix on a 964 and ££££

look under the headlights - another sneaky rust spot too...

 

[stupornaut]

Cheers Lads. All good Stuff. Appreciated.

 

[mcgc0]

Bet you wished you hadn't asked now.. []

 

[polar964]

If you are buying from a respected dealer/independent as stated then I wouldn't have thought you have to check everything and then become paranoid as to whether you have missed something. Sure check these things out, but I would not think a respected dealer would put his reputation on the line buy misleading its prospective customers. They will have priced it accordingly, with no doubt a margin to cover their costs in preparation and a bit for profit, at the end of the day its their living to.
Presumably it has a warranty of some kind?
Out of all the points raised, I would concur with asking for details about the engine re-build. Hopefully, all the details regarding this are documented, concluding a full one at that. I would then look at condition exterior and interior. If the rebuild documentation and the condition inside and out meets with your expectations then go for it. A fully engine re-build can cost 6k+. Knock this and the 1.5K off for preparation as stated in the add and you have a 964 for just over 10k. That's got to be good. Negotiate and buy on what you are happy to pay.
Best of luck

 

[Gordon Attar]

You ar likely to find asimilar spec private car with a rebuild for £3-5k less than this price if you are prepared to wait.

Unless you buy a 93 model or one that has had a rebuild, you are likely to have to put up with some minor oil leaks that are normally nothing to worry about. Cars that havent been used much tend to be a bit tempermental, especially electrically, so make sure you test every button and do a stop and restart after your test drive.

If you re not in to much of a hurry keep looking theres quite often a few appear in the Aberdeen area.

I will look up a some notes on what to check a bit later.

 

[Steve Brookes]

ORIGINAL: Gordon Attar

You ar likely to find asimilar spec private car with a rebuild for £3-5k less than this price if you are prepared to wait.

Sorry Gordon, I totally disagree with that. While it's possible to find decent 964s coupes for between £12K and £14K, I can't see anyone picking up one with a full rebuild for that sort of price. Those of us that have spent between £6K and £8K on engine rebuilds don't let them go that cheaply. The going rate for a private sale coupe that has had a recent rebuild is more like the price of the one the OP is looking at IMO. Also, anyone that has had a full rebuild will most likely have had a lot of other work done too e.g. new suspension and some body work. Therefore when they come up for sale they tend to be between £17K and £20K and sell quite quickly (I remember Nick Appleton's selling within a day or two of going up for sale for example).

 

[colin129]

This thread is worth a look, if you haven't already.

http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=590025

Probably could be updated from 1 or 2 of the posts here...

 

[Gordon Attar]

Steve

Your privilege to disagree, I have a C4 cab for sale with 75k on the clock and no rebuild and no need for one under £14k.

Just happened to know a well known car that belonged to a well known 964 enthusiast from the 964 yahoo group that was a few k cheaper than the two below that I just found in 2 minutes on pistonheads. The car mentioned at the beginning is a premium price for way to high a mileage car and you can get a bottom end done at Northways for c£4to 5k inc parts

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3404486.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3428157.htm

 

[satusai]

For what it's worth here is my input. I bought my C4 cabrio for £16k with 80k miles from a specialist dealer. It's in brilliant condition c/w leather seats, A/C and all the usual bits and pieces and has not yet had an engine rebuild. It came with lowered springs which made it feel like driving on concrete tyres plus was ruining the types on the inside so have had them raised. Must admit I have spent some dosh on it since, typical things like leaking oil cooler but nothing major so far. Do your research and try to look underneath before you buy as 964's can leak oil. Look under drivers side sill near rear wheel arch as this is where oil tank drain plug and pipes are. Check for oil leaking from oil cooler located in front rh wheel arch. Check for oil dripping from engine area. My A/C didn't work and then I sound out it was the old now illegal gas so have had to have it converted. If you do but one makes sure it has had the vent pipe fitted to the distributors. I could go on so instead, check out here for more info http://www.964uk.com/html/main.htm
Good luck.

 

[stupornaut]

Gordon - You nearly had me there!.. both sold of course.. I guess the clean, honest, fair priced examples don't hang about for long..
What's difficult for me to get my head round is the sheer range in price, not to mention the other variables such as mileage and whether cars have had rebuilds or not..
964's at low teens are very attractive, though obviously I take all the points about the cost of rebuilds and other work ...(I have chucked thousands at a 'too cheap' car before and it still was never right).. but once the prices we are talking here start to get into the high teens / twenties that brings 993's into the mix and that's maybe something I want to save for the future.
I'm certainly in no rush to jump into a wrong decision, but the prospect of getting to the point of swapping cash for keys on a car like the 964 is certainly an exciting one. If slightly nerve racking.

 

[Steve Brookes]

ORIGINAL: Gordon Attar

Steve

Your privilege to disagree, I have a C4 cab for sale with 75k on the clock and no rebuild and no need for one under £14k.

Just happened to know a well known car that belonged to a well known 964 enthusiast from the 964 yahoo group that was a few k cheaper than the two below that I just found in 2 minutes on pistonheads. The car mentioned at the beginning is a premium price for way to high a mileage car and you can get a bottom end done at Northways for c£4to 5k inc parts

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3404486.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3428157.htm

Glad to see that we can amicably agree to disagree Gordon and that you found a couple of good examples to back up your opinion of what can be had for as low as £14K. Both would raise a couple of questions in my mind about what we we're getting for our money but it would be rude to discuss those....especially if the new owners join this forum. []

Northway's price for a full rebuild is bang on the money and very much the same as what my guys quote (Unit 11, Warrington). However, most of us that have been down the full rebuild route know that it's the extras that crop when the lump is out, that take the build to the £6K to £8K level when we finally get the bill. []

p.s. Good luck with sale of yours. Seems a fair price to me.[]

 

[Gordon Attar]

Chris

Just make sure you check the car thoroughly and hav it inspected if you can, I always like to see where the car is parked to verify the oil drips.

I was just trying to show some evidence that your example was a bit steep for the mileage even though it had a rebuild. There was a number of stupidly high prices for 964's last year including quite a number in the £20's which seems to be causing the wide range of prices, Though its quite obvious that 964 prices are on the rise, you just need to watch and see if any of the high priced ones actually sell. The higher prices are into the 993 range and they are more reliable and you rarely hear of any rebuilds or reliability issues. So I would'nt personally be going into the higher teen value unless its a 93 model with 5 digit mileage or a recent rebuild with similar mileage.

Your totally right about the 964's heading for the 993 prices for comparison see a couple of cars in Scotland as examples if you are thinking high teens


http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3485912.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3428160.htm