Belt change gambling

[AnotherPITA]

Currently awaiting a schedule of jobs to do following a garage inspection, but wondering how the whole belt change gamble plays out.

I had a 996 C2 for several years, so familiar with the Porsche paranoia of IMS - RMS and bore score, but now trying to gauge the extent of cam belt paranoia.

I have a receipt for a Continental cam belt for my PITA, but it was from back when receipts came with the tear off sides with printer feed holes in !
I get the interference engine issue, but wondered if there are any credible stats, or even anecdotal evidence for instances and likelihood of cam belt failures?

Has anyone had a cam belt failure, or know a man that has......?

 

[PSH]

I follow a number of forums and FB pages, snapped belts do happen, probably more than some realise. Reasons are many, most common is failing to change the belts when due, you then have failed waterpump, idlers or even badly fitted belts. I would reccommend to only use Gates belts, you are in safe hands with their belts. If the car is new to you I would change all of above. It really isn't worth not doing the belts as the cost of repair can be high, more so if 16v. Actually, I was reading a FB post yesterday, guy had a 16v with snapped belt asking for rough cost to fix. Usually you can get away with just a head rebuild, alas this chap described the damage to his pistons as looking like tin cans that had be thrown down a mountain, his words not mine. I guess the level of damage depends on what you are doing at the time, the mininum will be head rebuild and some new valves.
I have owned my 951 for 24 years, i used to change at approx every 2 years, today being retired I am much closer to OEM timings. My belts were last changed in 2020, a gift from my son on my 60th, next year they will be renewed again including all rollers/idlers, waterpump doesn't need changing so often but should be checked for wear when belts are changed...this is a time thing not mileage, I have only covered approx 6k miles since last changed so far, will probably be approx 8.5k by next birthdsy as this year I am driving to Wales for a short break.

Pete

 

[blade7]

When I bought my turbo the last receipt for belts only was 2 years previously. And there was another receipt from Hartech for belts, rollers and a head gasket around 8 years before that. After owning the car for around 5 years I changed the belts and rollers/tensioners. And 10 years later, I've just recently changed the belts an rollers/tensioners again. But although the car only did around 2-3k miles a year, it didn't do those miles crawling along in city traffic. And IMO running hours matter as much as miles. Having said all that, I'd always change the belts on any car with patchy history, and it's false economy not to change the rollers and tensioners too.

 

[blade7]

Just to add, the car hasn't needed a new water pump for at least the last 4 belt changes. But that's another story...

 

[dlknight]

Belt snapped on my old 944S, luckily it was when I was trying to start so only damaged a couple of valves.

Worth combining this job with a front end reseal and possibly waterpump and pulleys (plus new oil pump gear).

 

[John Sims]

Dear old Beaky sits in the garage, and I dare not start him, as it has been a million years since his last belt change.

I am a firm believer in the "Every 5 years" mantra as failure could be catastrophic.

 

[blade7]

Dear old Beaky sits in the garage, and I dare not start him, as it has been a million years since his last belt change.

I am a firm believer in the "Every 5 years" mantra as failure could be catastrophic.

The belts I've just changed at 10 years old, looked absolutely fine. But they had only done around 20k miles, and I'd inspected them every couple of years. So do as I say or do at your own risk, and not if there is an oil leak in their vicinity.

 

[vitesse]

This below is my post from a few weeks ago.
Correctly installed belts can last a lot longer than the reputation/fear implies-and as I experienced,the Continental brand lasted very well showing minimal signs of use-I inspected them very carefully after removal tooth by tooth & there was no signs of any cracking especially at the tooth root positions.
They are of course a well engineered technical product but I wouldn't & am not suggesting one should leave their change that long,but they should easily last over 30,000 miles of general motoring.
Yes ,they get warm at the front but but so do many rubber products used on vehicles & their life is more down to fatigue due to the cycles of flexing especially the reinforcing cords moulded within.
However where a car is frequently driven at the limit,frequent gearbox braking etc,then clearly frequent changes are sensible.Even so,they should last at least 2 yrs before replacement.


Changed the cam & balance belts on my wife's 1986 924S a week ago after nearly 10 years.
The removed belts look almost unused & were Continental brand that time but with some new pulleys & a new water pump.They must have done at least 35K miles & although I have seen comments about them being prone to wear/stretch more than the supposed OEM Gates Powergrip ones,I am impressed by their performance & resilience.
This time round I got a more comparative price from GSL Carparts so went with the Gates belts but didn't need to replace any pulleys & as a First ,changed them both with ease without removing the crankshaft bolt & hence the power steering pulley even though I have my own home made flywheel lock & suitable & necessary breaker bar plus scaffold tube..
With Nicholas my son helping ,it was easier tucking the cambelt in around the crankshaft sprocket with appropriate soft nosed "poking bars".
tensioned with my usual "twist & shout" method with all pulleys ending up precisely on their timing marks.
The faff is really removing the top hose,aircleaner box & fan cowl etc but now ready for a summer worry free season with a sweet sounding engine with virtually no belt whine ,now showing 116850 miles.
Also fitted a new multi vee alternator drivebelt which now comes with 1 less V section than the original,but had forgotten to get a new power steering V-belt but the existing one was checked carefully & was OK.
NB:-My early industrial background was in power transmission ,chains,gearboxes clutches toothed belts ,V-belts,pulleys & couplings.

 

[blade7]

Continental have a good reputation, and I've used several sets of their belts and tyres with no issues in the past. My awd Cupra R has a set of Conti tyres on it at the moment, and will probably have another set on it if I keep it. I only really favour Gates belts because I worked there for years, and their reputation is second to none. I wouldn't re use 10 year/35k mile old rollers/tensioners though, when they don't add much cost.

 

[AnotherPITA]

Ok, thanks everyone for the feedback.

I've been working on the car for a few days and, whilst refitting the radiator fan that had seized, noticed that the cam belt cover wasn't fitted correctly, had a missing bolt and one that had sheared off. I secured it all back together but didn't think to take a photo of the belts and pulleys through the gap.......

I am resigned to getting them changed - cant have done any good to have been driving around with the cover flapping open - so I suppose the next question is typical costs to have the lot changed, including the water pump and full coolant change?

Ta.

 

[scam75]

You will be around £500 for belts, rollers and a waterpump I'd imagine. Give you a lot of peace of mind.

 

[AnotherPITA]

You will be around £500 for belts, rollers and a waterpump I'd imagine. Give you a lot of peace of mind.

Thanks.

Currently being frustrated by both gearbox filler and drain plugs seized solid and rounding off - WD40 useless, already tried heat but no luck, so Plus Gas next, then possibly cold chisel and brute force.

If that doesn't work then an advert for a rolling restoration might appear.........

 

[blade7]

Have you tried giving the drain plug tool a few knocks with a hammer? Don't over do it though. I'd probably try heat, penetrating fluid and impacts at the same time.

 

[AnotherPITA]

Have you tried giving the drain plug tool a few knocks with a hammer? Don't over do it though. I'd probably try heat, penetrating fluid and impacts at the same time.

Yes, tried various combinations and verbal threats/insults, but the plugs look to have had previous attempts to free them so are already sloppy with a 17mm hex.
PlusGas arrived earlier so I'll get it back up on chocks and have another go at it.

 

[blade7]

Got a MIG welder?

 

[AnotherPITA]

Got a MIG welder?

No, just the plumbers torch

 

[blade7]

Perhaps a mobile welder can help.

 

[vitesse]

If you get some of that epoxy metal body filler putty that you kneed together to mix,put the hex socket in the filler/drain plug & fill the voids with the putty.
When fully set coupled with an impact hammer should enable removal.

 

[AnotherPITA]

If you get some of that epoxy metal body filler putty that you kneed together to mix,put the hex socket in the filler/drain plug & fill the voids with the putty.
When fully set coupled with an impact hammer should enable removal.

I've inadvertently resolved it for now - dropped the exhaust and bent up the heat shield to get a straight on line for a drill to get a bolt extractor in. Not realising how shallow the filler and drain plugs are, the pilot hole went right through the filler plug....... so I used an improvised dipstick to check for gear oil. Level is full and very good colour/viscosity, so I then plugged the pilot hole in the filler plug with a smaller bolt.

Thinking I'd got a result I dropped it off the ramps and fired up - started briefly then died. Repeated start up again- another brief fire up then died again.

Now just turning over well but not firing at all. Checked for obvious issues, battery healthy, plug caps secure, will check rotor and dizzy cap condition tomorrow.

 

[AnotherPITA]

If you get some of that epoxy metal body filler putty that you kneed together to mix,put the hex socket in the filler/drain plug & fill the voids with the putty.
When fully set coupled with an impact hammer should enable removal.

I've inadvertently resolved it for now - dropped the exhaust and bent up the heat shield to get a straight on line for a drill to get a bolt extractor in. Not realising how shallow the filler and drain plugs are, the pilot hole went right through the filler plug....... so I used an improvised dipstick to check for gear oil. Level is full and very good colour/viscosity, so I then plugged the pilot hole in the filler plug with a smaller bolt.

Thinking I'd got a result I dropped it off the ramps and fired up - started briefly then died. Repeated start up again- another brief fire up then died again.

Now just turning over well but not firing at all. Checked for obvious issues, battery healthy, plug caps secure, will check rotor and dizzy cap condition tomorrow.

Traced the problem to a faulty DME relay - the previous owner very kindly had one spare in the bag of bits left in the car.

This PITA is fighting me at every opportunity, but also giving me the opportunity to work it out. Still pleasantly surprised at how straight forward it is to work on so far, but glad its Historic now.