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Boxster/930 Brakes

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Has anyone done the Boxster brake transplant? Have an imbalance in my front brakes (just conformed by MOT rollers) which will mean rebuilt calipers and probably also new discs and pads, so am thinking of upgrading as it makes sense all round. Curious to know what anyone who is running them thinks.
 
Thanks to one of my best Porsching buddies, I have now sorted two things out: a decent non-foglight front valance and...a pair of 930 front calipers [:)]

Need to sort rears now, refurb them all, do the mods to fit inc new master cylinder, fit some new discs and pads all round and Robert's your mother's brother!

Pretty chuffed right now I have to say [8D]
 
Hi John

If the pennies are tight here is another view!

I regularly use my SC for track days with standard OEM discs, Braided lines. Motul 600 fluid and rebuilt calipers, with either Ferodo 3000 pads or EBC green pads on the front and standard OEM pads in the rear. Typical track day is 40-50 laps and never had any fade or problem with brake performance. Pads only last 2 events tho and I do minimal road mileage in between. In my experience the standard set up if in tip top condition with good 600 deg fluid will perform OK in an unmodified car with road tyres.

However I am going to fit the cooling system from Pelican to try to extend the pad life!

Bruce Balchin
 
A fair bit of the info has come out in this thread but there is more. The options really are thus:

1. Standard SC brakes in top condition with race pads, race fluid and cold air ducting. It can be made to work. I raced and prepared a 2.4E with essentially these brakes and used Pagid Orange pads and Motul fluid. Pads lasted about 2 days and the car only weighed circa 1000kg, put it sure stopped.

2. Carrera fronts and SC rears. A bolt on and relatively cheap to boot. Gives you the benefit of a 24mm thick disc and a wider throat caliper. With ducting this may be enough for a heavier occasional track day car on R-tyres. The right pads will give you enough clamp force to lock your tyres wet or dry. As an intermediate step up you could substitute Boxster calipers rather than 3.2 - but you don't gain much with just a caliper change.

3. 964/944T/Boxster calipers over a 944T 28mm thick disc and Carrera rears. A good step up in front disc size gives you a decent increase in thermal reserves. I recently did 2 track days in hot weather with no ducting and had no issues in my heavy G50 Carrera. you also get a lighter, stiffer caliper that is nearly twice the size and has much bigger pads for longer life. This set-up should be ample for even a 300+hp track car as it is basically what the much heavier 964 has. Works fine with a std small master cylinder but Carreras need to remove the proportioning valve for proper bias. SC rears would be overly front biased with this set-up as it is slightly front biased anyway with 3.2 rears. The front disc needs a 5mm bearing spacer to clear the strut so you gain 5mm of track or lose 5mm of clearance for your tyres depending on how you look at it. I don't think this set-up fits in a 16x6 Fuchs wheel so 16x7 fronts are required.

4. 930 turbo front and rear. A big step up in thermal reserves as you go to a 12.75 inch disc that is 32mm thick in front and a 28mm thick rear disc. Calipers are old tech with non-differential pistons etc, still its the gold standard if you want to run Fuchs. Fits in 15s or 16s - as 16s have very little more room for brakes as the centres are virtually identical to 15s. You can run 993 front calipers and 965 rears for a more modern set-up but, IMHO, the fronts won't fit in a 16x7 Fuchs without modification/spacers unless its a 951 16x7/8 that has extra caliper space. Discs are expensive as you have to go for a custom zero offset mounting bell for the front and then choose a disc. I would never buy discs from the breakers ! 930 brakes need a turbo master cylinder and I think you need to do all 4 corners as even Carrera rears will be too small to give close to the right bias. I recently rode in a car with this set-up - 930 front and 3.2 rear - and while the owner tried different pads to correct the bias, it was nowhere near ideal. It meant braking from nearly twice the distance I was braking at - so yes it does make a significant difference.

5. Big Red or GT3 or GT3Mk2. The sky is the limit if you have big enough wheels and a big enough wallet. Big Reds are not much bigger than 930 - 322mm x 32mm - but the calipers are a great design (discontinued as the moulds have worn out) for street and track. 350mm or even 370mm discs are possible if you need to do endurance races !

Before deciding where you fit on this spectrum you might ask how fast your car will be. I know race cars with 600hp running turbo brakes so do you need this much brake? After all its a lot of extra weight to carry around. Just pick up some 930 discs some time, they are massive. If you are going to build a track car, then you will probably build it light in which case you need less brakes. Just something to consider. Andy's CS and my 3.2 brake pretty much as well as anything up to GT3RS with just mild upgrades at a fairly reasonable cost. Threads on my brakes and Andy's are in the 3.2 forum. Pic attached of 964 caliper over 28mm x 298mm 944T disc.

HTH

Richard

4EB4E3CD444E4A46A530CDF17E220B01.jpg
 
Hard to see but it fills the wheel up nicely and has the all important "Porsche" script for max bling !

93C3710365414221A4B9ED4A44894389.jpg
 
Thanks for your respective inputs Bruce and Richard, much appreciated.

I am definitely going with 930 kit as it's the ultimate in Fuch-compatible brakes. For me it's not about the bling or the bucks, or that I might never use their huge reserves to the anything like the fullest, it's the fact that 930 brakes are the most effective, completely period upgrade. I also really like the fact that it's not a readily available bolt-on mod, we have to fabricate to fit, so I can invest some time and effort, find the right bits, get them all in and properly set up and really improve the car in a fundamental area.

I grew up with Citroen CX brakes, and if anyone reading this has ever driven a CX quickly, they will know just how effective the anchors are. They give complete confidence behind the wheel, inspiring absolute rock-solid faith in the stopping ability of the car and peerless control despite almost zero pedal travel. My 911 is currently miles away from that and I am not even remotely interested in spending money on refurbing standard kit as feel it to be improvable, and would rather go sympathetic period upgrade hence the 930 kit. I think that is achievable in the 911 and the 930 set up is the only way I am going to get that. This car is a keeper so I am more than happy to invest the time and money and do it properly once rather than chip away a number of times and eventually do this mod anyway.

I will build a track car at some stage in the future and it will probably have the 944T bits in for the exact reasons you mention Richard, but first I want to sort this hot rod cab out and 930 discs, calipers and m/c are perfect!

You are also right about the 'no brakes from a breakers', wouldn't dream of it, though might have to go with second-hand front hats as hear they are impossible to find new unless you go with the VCI kit or something. Have a lead on discs for it, just waiting to hear now.

Cheers guys [;)]
 
There are plenty of places selling the front hats. IIRC, try a search on Pelican for user Jeremy964 and check out his recent 993 over turbo discs upgrade. Those were the best prices I have seen by a long margin.
 
John,

I corresponded with Dave Walsh (Prodigious Braking) earlier this year, as a follow-up to the Jeremy964 thread on Pelican, and also asked him a question via Ebay as he was selling his front kit on there.

Ebay link is here :-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7951370461

Here is what he had to say :-

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian,

Hello, I will try to answer all of your qurstions. I see you refereanced Jeremeys Kit that was $415, I do not sell that version of the kit any longer. Some people where using them on the track after I recommended them not to, and were having problems with the rotors. So I will not sell that version of the rotor any longer. If you go on Wilwood.com I now will only use HD rotors in my kits. I did use UL-32's, but I will not use them any longer. I would rather have to charge a little more, and never have any complaints just happy customers. The Kit cost differance is about $54 U.S. and so I sell the kit for $450 now. The buy it now price should be set at $495, at the buy it now price I am including a hardware upgrade to NAS aerospace hardware. This addition costs about $80, so with the buy it now you are still saving $45 on the retail price.

As far as 993 rears, I can do the work here, and I can get ahold of the rears for $265 a pair from a repuatable reseler, the calipers would be the standard black, and might be in need of a repaint. I can not garenty the condition of them, this is one reason I do not sell them. If I were to sell them, then I would charge more, but I would clean them up and ensure 100% proper operation. You can pursches them a little cheaper off Ebay, and have them shipped to me here in the U.S. as a option.

Nothing speical is done to the 993 calipers, all you need is the pair of front 993 S-4 calipers, and I will supply what is needed to put them on your car. Everything is bolt on, and you will just need to remove you dust sheilds in the rear.

Thank you,
David Walsh
Pro Braking
Prodigious Inc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Compare his prices with these on Ebay for big brake kit :-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33563&item=7914163347&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

I could be tempted, as his setup of 993 brakes could probably be done for little over a £1K !

CAUTION - read the bit about wheel fit with 7x16 Fuchs and 'rolled lips' !!!

Let us know how you get on.
 
Thanks guys.

I think I've read every Pelican thread going on the subject but always nice to revisit some old favourites. Jeremy's set up is nice but the red calipers behind the daisy polished wheels are a bit Willy Wonka's choccie factory for me. Plus he is running 8's on the front with some nut sized tyre and I want to stay with 7's in stock fenders if I can do that.

'Slider '79 SC' runs the 993 setup in black and total cost was $2100 - looks OK, but he is not running Fuchs. '89 911' with the twin-plug '89 3.4 Carrera knows his stuff and runs the 930's with great success as do quite a few others on there.

Dave's (probraking.net) price of $480 for the 993 bits is excellent and have some family in the States so would probably get away with no duty too, but I think you get what you pay for so still think 930 is the way to go. The mods required to fit the 930 stuff are easy enough, mill the fins and machine the rear mounts, and that VCI page shows it to be pretty straightforward. Only hassle is finding the bits for a decent price but am in no big rush so who knows.

I know Bill V says the 993S4/965 rears are the optimum even if he says they are a little front-biased, but personally I think 930 brakes on a little SC Cab will be interesting. I don't mind the work or (to a certain extent) the cost as long as they are proper, both in the way they work and the way they look. Nothing set in stone yet though so will keep digging around on it.

Hope you guys will come for a ride when it's all sorted, can see some crazy track days coming up with this car at some stage. Get it working properly first though [8D]
 
Richard

a very comprhensive post on the brake options thanks, I recently had a few laps at castle coombe as passenger in a red carrera with r tyres on standard brakes and for the increase in speed I would certainly upgrade to the carrera discs and callipers on my SC if and when running these tyres, the tyres alone seemed to be worth 4-5 secs a lap so corner braking much harder. Also the carrera was able to keep up with 993 RS very impressive for an older car

regards

Bruce
 
ORIGINAL: bruceb

Also the carrera was able to keep up with 993 RS very impressive for an older car

Mate, they might be 20 plus years old, but our cars are quick. Mine has zero problem staying in front of stock Carreras on the road up to about 100/110, then Carrera starts to come back with slightly better aero bits & bit more power, but the punchy little SC's are nothing to be ashamed of in performance terms. They are ace.
 
ORIGINAL: bruceb

Richard

a very comprhensive post on the brake options thanks, I recently had a few laps at castle coombe as passenger in a red carrera with r tyres on standard brakes and for the increase in speed I would certainly upgrade to the carrera discs and callipers on my SC if and when running these tyres, the tyres alone seemed to be worth 4-5 secs a lap so corner braking much harder. Also the carrera was able to keep up with 993 RS very impressive for an older car

regards

Bruce

Hi Bruce,

I think I know the car you had a ride in (but I forget the owners name - IIRC white centred 7/8x16 Fuchs with Michelin Cup tyres?). If its the car I am thinking of, my car is a bit faster again as its lighter, lower, stiffer, bigger brakes and more powerful - it ought to be faster anyway [:)]

These cars can be made to go quite fast. A well driven 993RS should be considerably quicker again, but in the context of track days where driving skill is so varied it is possible to take many scalps in a well prepared SC or 3.2.

Back to brakes, it is indeed interesting to hear it confirmed that the 993 calipers won't fit inside 7x16 Fuchs. I still think the 951 7/8x16 Fuchs will work though. Unfortunately they are as rare as hen's teeth in the UK as very few 944Ts seem to have been optioned up with Fuchs wheels.

RB
 
Sorry for resurecting this really comprehensive thread but I am unsure of a few details concerning the upgrades previously mentioned.

It seems the upgrade to 944T discs and boxter calipers is the most cost effective perfromance enhancement without getting real expensive 930 type brakes.

Boxter calipers over standard carrera discs not worth the effort and cost because there is no change to the disc diameter or thickness?

The 944T disc is 298mm x 28mm compared with a carrera at 282mm x 24mm. With the available boxter caliper bracket do the pads cover the disc or overhang? as there is 16mm difference in diameter, Do you need to get different brackets for different discs?

With the 944T 28mm discs is it necessary to machine 2mm off of each pad to get them to fit, as I think the caliper was designed to fit 298mm x 24mm boxter disc?

Any feedback would be much appreciated before opening the wallet!!

Bruce
 
Bruce phone Jez Parsons at Carrera Performance in Sussex he might have just what you are looking for including machined mounting brackets , tell him I told you to call.
01403 891911
 
If you call Russell Lewis (RSR Engineering) 01428 602911 he can advise what exactly is involved with the Boxster caliper / 944T discs upgrade as he did it for me a few months ago. All I can say is that having now done several trackdays with my upgrade (full details already posted) I'm very pleased with the performance.
 
Pete/Andy

thanks for leads, spoke to both Jez and Russel today and they were both very helpful.

Interestingly both advise doing incremental improvements to the SC brakes along the lines of updating to carrera discs first and fitting either boxter front or 993 rear calipers.

The 944T disc requires quite a bit of modification to make it fit, including machining the discs to reduce the thickness to get the pads to fit and spacing the bearings.

Apparently the Classic Porsche race cars use standard discs and calipers with plenty of ducted cooling without problems. The weight of the race cars is similar to mine at around 1150kg so I reason that braking performance of my car needs to be similar and no better that that of the race cars.

So I am going to go as follows for my car

Carrea discs
Ducted cooling
Either boxter,993 or even new carrera steel front calipers

I want to leave the rear brakes alone so will do a bit more research on what keeps the brake balance correct before making the final decision on front caliper.

Bruce
 
Hi John,

If interested I have a set of 928 s4 front & rear callipers and pads which I bought for a 930break upgrade (£500) in Dec last year.
AFTER buying them I was told that the rears were exactly the same size as my current rears and the fronts were only 2 / 4 mm bigger so didn't bother in the end, so are now for sale. Pics available if interested.

Andrew
 

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