Boxster laps Bedford Autodrome faster than 911...scoop!!!
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Faster but not as entertaining![8D]
Faster but not as entertaining![8D]
Guest
New member
I think it was Dominic Toretto who said,ORIGINAL: Francis Jackson
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Faster but not as entertaining![8D]
"Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile; winning's winning." [
] []
Must have been quoted by a famous Boxster racing driver then eh!?! was it the one that one Le mans outright (oops, no a boxsters not done that) or may be it was a class win (oops, no they've not done that either) How about any major race since inception??????????? anyone? But as you say winning is winning and the 911's won just about every major race you can think of and a few you have'nt. Case closed.
Not really was just waiting for someone to tell me different[]
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Guest
New member
We'll see.
If it does, then fair play to it. That's progress for you.
I suspect it will depend on the circuit as well as to whoch comes out on top.
I'm not convinced the coupe is the way to go from a marketing perspective, and having the power too close to the 911 is crazy, but it's going to happen whether I like it or not.
I have nothing against the Boxster, just that Porsche make more money from the bigger car. If the two are too close, then they will be stealing sales from themselves.
If it does, then fair play to it. That's progress for you.
I suspect it will depend on the circuit as well as to whoch comes out on top.
I'm not convinced the coupe is the way to go from a marketing perspective, and having the power too close to the 911 is crazy, but it's going to happen whether I like it or not.
I have nothing against the Boxster, just that Porsche make more money from the bigger car. If the two are too close, then they will be stealing sales from themselves.
TISPKJ
New member
Stuart, does it matter if they sell a coupe at 50k or a997 at 56k ? surely any lost sales at the top end would be made up by more people with 50k than 56k ?
I did say on the forum somewhere over a year ago that porsche already have the ingrediants for there next sports car, the motor from the cayenne stuck in the middle of a 911 a la boxster, there just using up the old 3.4 lumps that piss oil out everywhere first ! before introducing the v8 mid engine 998, or boxster.
Be nice eh ..............
I did say on the forum somewhere over a year ago that porsche already have the ingrediants for there next sports car, the motor from the cayenne stuck in the middle of a 911 a la boxster, there just using up the old 3.4 lumps that piss oil out everywhere first ! before introducing the v8 mid engine 998, or boxster.
Be nice eh ..............
Guest
New member
I am not convinced by their strategy.
As we see with the GT2, the format is not longer suitable for racing. The rear engine prevent diffusers being used properly compromising rear down force and grip, and the inlet restrictors strangle the turbos since the airflow is supersonic.
Ultimately, the packaging constraints may also cause problems for the GT3, if/when GT racing becomes bigger with more entrants.
Porsche have stated that the 911 will remain the platform for racing. However, if a mid engined car is able to go faster, then there will come a point when this decision will have to be questioned.
If the balance is so much better and higher cornering speeds can be maintained, then it would be perverse not to t use the best vehicle for racing. At which point they will need to use the best engine as well.
This only comes about since they are producing a smaller coupe with its additional stiffness.
The issue comes from a marketing perspective about how to position all this, since the smaller car has been seen as an entry point, and for many the 911 is seen as definitive Porsche.
If they offer the two side by side, at a similar price, then I guess it does not affect the profits much (but 6K is 6K), but it is a bit ineffiecient, since you have two offerings that are the almost the same, targetted at the same cutomers. They should be looking for product offerings that steal sales from competitors of plug new gaps in the market, not competing with themselves.
I would say either make the new smaller coupe the racing product and give it the GT3 engine (although it will devalue the GT3), or keep them well separated in terms of performance.
I quite like the idea of sticking with the 911 for racing, but I would lose the rear seats, swap the engine and gearbox round, have the engine infront of the rear axle, add some difusers, then you have something that can race effectively and keep the same silhouette. Of course everyone will moan that it is not sticking to the formula, that the car is not the same, but the alternative is to let is whither away.
As others have mentioned before, you have to question whether the time is coming for some more radical ideas.
(You may have noticed that Ferrari have commisioned some design agencies to consider some alternative cars for them. The limited edition Enzo type models are separate, much as the C-GT is for Porsche, but the mainstream models are up for debate.)
The issue for all manufacturers is that once the performance of all your cars in the range becomes the same, why should you pay 100K or 150K, when 40-50K gets you the same? Normally more money get you more luxury, but for Porsche this is more of a problem, since people want less luxury.
As we see with the GT2, the format is not longer suitable for racing. The rear engine prevent diffusers being used properly compromising rear down force and grip, and the inlet restrictors strangle the turbos since the airflow is supersonic.
Ultimately, the packaging constraints may also cause problems for the GT3, if/when GT racing becomes bigger with more entrants.
Porsche have stated that the 911 will remain the platform for racing. However, if a mid engined car is able to go faster, then there will come a point when this decision will have to be questioned.
If the balance is so much better and higher cornering speeds can be maintained, then it would be perverse not to t use the best vehicle for racing. At which point they will need to use the best engine as well.
This only comes about since they are producing a smaller coupe with its additional stiffness.
The issue comes from a marketing perspective about how to position all this, since the smaller car has been seen as an entry point, and for many the 911 is seen as definitive Porsche.
If they offer the two side by side, at a similar price, then I guess it does not affect the profits much (but 6K is 6K), but it is a bit ineffiecient, since you have two offerings that are the almost the same, targetted at the same cutomers. They should be looking for product offerings that steal sales from competitors of plug new gaps in the market, not competing with themselves.
I would say either make the new smaller coupe the racing product and give it the GT3 engine (although it will devalue the GT3), or keep them well separated in terms of performance.
I quite like the idea of sticking with the 911 for racing, but I would lose the rear seats, swap the engine and gearbox round, have the engine infront of the rear axle, add some difusers, then you have something that can race effectively and keep the same silhouette. Of course everyone will moan that it is not sticking to the formula, that the car is not the same, but the alternative is to let is whither away.
As others have mentioned before, you have to question whether the time is coming for some more radical ideas.
(You may have noticed that Ferrari have commisioned some design agencies to consider some alternative cars for them. The limited edition Enzo type models are separate, much as the C-GT is for Porsche, but the mainstream models are up for debate.)
The issue for all manufacturers is that once the performance of all your cars in the range becomes the same, why should you pay 100K or 150K, when 40-50K gets you the same? Normally more money get you more luxury, but for Porsche this is more of a problem, since people want less luxury.
Interesting thoughts, but does the sportscar world need another mid engined contender. The reason the 911 sells is due to it's uniqueness. There is simply nothing else that drives like it. As for the mid engined car taking the sales off the 911, well maybe maybe not! for a lot of people the real bonus is the rear seats, ok so they are'nt that practicle but they are there. try getting a baby seat in the back of a boxster! this is a real selling point for the buying audience of the 911.
JCB..
Non-member
Not wishing to appear to be splitting hairs but a well tuned VW Beetle with a hot motor is very similar in its handling characteristics to many early, non electronic gizmo'd 911's.
IMHO - this, and the amount of disposable income you have, rate as the primary factors for choosing one over the other.
Therefore a mid-engined coupe - quite a bit of space is taken up by the existing Boxster's hood and it's supporting extras and not to mention the rear boot.
Andy Tims
New member
Laurence
Whilst I'm not for a moment suggesting that track days are, or should be considered racing in any form, I have "beaten" lots of 911's in my old Boxster S round several UK circuits.[]
Mind you my 16 year old Club Sport is faster than a series 1 Boxster S - Same driver, same tracks, even the same tyres, comperable track conditions - pretty conclusive if you ask me.
Whilst I'm not for a moment suggesting that track days are, or should be considered racing in any form, I have "beaten" lots of 911's in my old Boxster S round several UK circuits.[
]Mind you my 16 year old Club Sport is faster than a series 1 Boxster S - Same driver, same tracks, even the same tyres, comperable track conditions - pretty conclusive if you ask me.
Guest
New member
I agree that the uniqueness element is important - but it can't be sustained on the racing cars at least, if it is a disadvantage. And the racing pedigree of the 911 is part of its image and appeal.
I take your point about whether more more mid engined cars are needed though - rather than offering something different, you offer something quite similar and hence end up competing on price.
I also think that the performance element is very important. At the moment I believe the fact that it beats the opposition in all the tests in the car magazines in terms of driving dynamics is a factor, and those it does not meet cost a lot more e.g. Ferrari. I think that if there was an alternative that was better, complete with Porsche badge on the front, then a significant proportion of people would swap. Maybe I am wrong, but I think the market would not be so resistant to change.
As for the rear seats, it seems very few people who buy the new cars have them as their only car (I'm part pf the exceptions - although I am considering getting a 2nd car). Perhaps I am also wrong here, but I am not convinced the rear seats figures that highly in the decision making process (perhaps I am also wrong here too but it is pretty rare to see 2 people in the car, let alone 3 or 4).
Porsche claimed the Boxster was for before you start a family, the Cayenne was for when they are growing up, and the 911 for once they have left and bought their own Boxsters.
A 4 seat, 2 door GT would fill the range in (complete with 5 litre, 550bhp, V8).
I take your point about whether more more mid engined cars are needed though - rather than offering something different, you offer something quite similar and hence end up competing on price.
I also think that the performance element is very important. At the moment I believe the fact that it beats the opposition in all the tests in the car magazines in terms of driving dynamics is a factor, and those it does not meet cost a lot more e.g. Ferrari. I think that if there was an alternative that was better, complete with Porsche badge on the front, then a significant proportion of people would swap. Maybe I am wrong, but I think the market would not be so resistant to change.
As for the rear seats, it seems very few people who buy the new cars have them as their only car (I'm part pf the exceptions - although I am considering getting a 2nd car). Perhaps I am also wrong here, but I am not convinced the rear seats figures that highly in the decision making process (perhaps I am also wrong here too but it is pretty rare to see 2 people in the car, let alone 3 or 4).
Porsche claimed the Boxster was for before you start a family, the Cayenne was for when they are growing up, and the 911 for once they have left and bought their own Boxsters.
A 4 seat, 2 door GT would fill the range in (complete with 5 litre, 550bhp, V8).
JCB, unique as in the only NEW rear engine six cylinder sportscar you can buy. whilst I take your point on the beetle , it can't be bought new (rear engined) in sports car guise and it's missing a couple of cylinders. 356 gets even closer but again you can't buy a new one.
I don't dispute that the rear seats are hardly used. But it's an "excuse" buying factor. I know that there are plenty of women 911 owners but predomenantly they are bought by the late 30's onwards male with 1 child or more and they can tell the wife that the kids will fit in the back! that they do or don't in the end is imaterial as the car is bought and wife falls in love with it anyway!
People have been saying the 911 can't be competative in racing anymore for almost as long as the car has been in exisitance. lets wait and see.
Don't get me wrong I love the boxster and would love to own one.
I don't dispute that the rear seats are hardly used. But it's an "excuse" buying factor. I know that there are plenty of women 911 owners but predomenantly they are bought by the late 30's onwards male with 1 child or more and they can tell the wife that the kids will fit in the back! that they do or don't in the end is imaterial as the car is bought and wife falls in love with it anyway!
People have been saying the 911 can't be competative in racing anymore for almost as long as the car has been in exisitance. lets wait and see.
Don't get me wrong I love the boxster and would love to own one.
Guest
New member
just having a trawl but as an afterthought - as you are refering to the 911, the boxster, successor (whether you like it or not) to the 914. (the give away was the number of 914s at the new boxster launch)
914 GT Class winner Le Mans 1970
914 1st Marathon De La Route 1970 at the Nurburgring
914 2nd Marathon De La Route 1970 at the Nurburgring
914 3rd Marathon De La Route 1970 at the Nurburgring
(ps a 911S came 5th if that helps)
and i'm sure i saw in pp that Paul Herbert's 914 got a podium place last year in the porsche cup?
and as someone else said trackdays aren't races, but i can do things in my 914 that i could never do in a 911
and that being said i have done things in a 205 (admitedly much modified and lightened) on tracks to boxsters that put them to shame, like undertaking them on bends at over 110.
my point being that ultimately the better engineered car with enough oomph will always be just that, BETTER.
so the coupe / cayman whatever which enough juice on tap is going to make the 99 whatever look a bit redundant.
though your point about child seats is stunning piece of logic, a good friend of mine regularly carts her 2 children and golden lab in her 996 c4 cab, makes perfect sense. thats why my wife would rather have a 996 than a boxster.
right thats my post for this year done
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