Brake and wheel options?

[Guest]

Morning,

I've got 1986 pre ABS hubs on my Turbo with 16" Turbo deep dish Teledial alloys.

I want to put bigger brakes on the car and am getting a bit confused by what's what.
Is there a FAQ anywhere that explains what my options are?

I want to fit larger wheels at some point, I think I have to do this to get bigger disks and calipers anyway is that correct?

Also a friend of a friend is breaking a 928 with lot's of bits up for grabs, I've read somewhere that 928 brakes will fit a 944T is this correct?

Sorry if this has been discussed to death before!

Ideally I'd like to end up with something like Ricks Cannell's car which I think looks absolutley stunning but it's probably way out of my budget for now so I'd like ideas for an interim upgrade.

Thanks, Tim.

 

[Fen]

I'm a litle sketchy myself as to what brakes fit an '86 Turbo, but I can offer some info on some of it.

You will only need bigger wheels if you go for 'Big Red' brakes as fitted to 993 Turbos among others. They were also fitted to the 928 GTS but in black which suits my desire for not too much bling, and I'll be going for them at some point.

Later Turbos had bigger brakes and they can be fitted - John Sims is your man here as he's done it, but I think his car has ABS (or at least the offset that went with ABS). Unless the 928 that's breaking is a GTS then it will have late '44T brakes at best. They fit under 16" rims and to be honest they are ample for even trackdays unless the car is heavily modified.

 

[John Sims]

Where do I begin?

SE Turbos - the later ones than ours - have 32mm thick vented front discs with larger four pot callipers, these also having been used on the 968 and 928 S4. The venting on the earlier discs are radial to the hub where as the later discs are curved and suck air through the disc like a fan.

Image: SE disc and calliper (painted red) fitted compared to original 220 disc and calliper.

The callipers will not mount on our hub assemblies as the bolts go the wrong way. The bolts on our callipers go through little ears on the back of the calliper and are at 90 degrees to the disc, where as the later callipers bolt through the calliper body and are parallel to the disc.

I did convert my car to SE callipers and discs about a year ago using a Koklen conversion block which I bought from Lindsey Racing. These are the same as used for the "Big Red" conversion, and consist of a block of aluminium with mountings going at 90 degrees to each other. When I carried out this conversion I was using second hand discs which were partialy worn. I recently came to replace my discs and was unhappy with how close the steering ball joints were to the back of the unworn discs - the rubber seal was almost touching the disc. As a consequence I have now swapped the hub assemblies for SE units obviating the need for the conversion block.

In summary:-

1. You can fit later brakes with a conversion block (my redundant ones are for sale for a nominal sum if you would like them) but (unlike me) don't cut all of the original backing plate away thus leaving protection for the steering rubbers.

2. Replace the hub assembly for the SE units then SE 928 S4 brakes bolt straight on (obviously) as will later "Big Red" callipers if you go that route.

 

[Guest]

John your a brake God.. []

 

[John Sims]

John your a brake God..

Yeh! As if.

To illustrate my comments above:-

Left - 220 calliper on hub (mounting bolts removed) showing calliper mounting ears also showing original disc. Right - hub with 928/S4 disc and Kokeln conversion bracket to receive later type callipers.

Shows the difference in thickness of the discs and also the relationship of the disc to the steering balljoint mounting hole.

Kokeln conversion brackets - For Sale

 

[Fen]

John,

I assume that the S2 can use those adapters as well? If so, and if you still have them when the time comes I'll take them and hand my Turbo callipers down to my cab and sell on the S2 ones.

I don't want to spend any money in that direction yet though, so if you find a buyer in the meantime then go for it.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the Info so far, I'm a little better off in understanding what's required.

Correct me if I'm wrong

Option 1 Fit 944 Turbo SE hubs and I can then SE brakes, calipers and a larger selection of OE alloy wheels? but keep my 16" Turbo Teledials for the time being

Option 2 Fit 996 Hubs as per above and go for the really flashy brakes and calipers but will have to fit at least 17" wheels to accomodate the bigger brakes?

Some other questions

928 S4 brakes are the same as the 944 Turbo SE?
928 GTS brakes are the same as the 996?

Why would you buy the Kokeln adaptor plates rather than change the hubs?

Of my two options above can anyone give me approximate costs based on buying from breakers.

Thanks Tim.

P.S. If we get enough info together in this thread along with the other thread on wheel sizes / offsets I don't mind compiling into a Faq

P.P.S Where's Rick, he knows a lot about it because he's done it with his car.

 

[Fen]

I don't know if 996 hubs would even fit, but in any case it's still the later 944 Turbo hubs you'd want to fit Big Red brakes. I'm not even sure if the 996 came with them (I have no interest in watercooled 911's), but they were used on the 993 Turbo.

You only need 17's to clear Big Reds.

928S4 brakes are the same as late 944 Turbo (IO believe)
928GTS brakes are the same as Big Reds but in black, so need 17's

Presumably the Kokeln adaptors are cheaper and simpler than changing hubs? Also note they are American and very few 250 Turbos made it there, so the correct hubs are presumably like the doo doo of the rocking horse.

 

[eastendr]

The mounting brackets (see John Simms post above) are called 'Radial Mounts'.

Tim, you might want to talk to Simon Butterworth at Porsche-Apart. He'll be able to tell you what you need and probably supply what you want at a good price. Possibly complete front M030 setup like you'll find at an autojumble (?) that are ready to bolt on (although you'd probably want to refurbish the calipers first).

The calipers from the 928 S4/GT are same as M030/late 944T. 928GTS are known as 'big blacks'. You will not be able to use the discs from the 928 on your 944T (unless they're the complete 928GTS disc/caliper setup with late 944T hubs). 928S4 setup needs 16" rims. Big red (or black) setup needs 17" rims.

993/996 hubs are different and will not fit (I think ...)

The bigger brakes were introduced with the Turbo S / 250 and became standard.

Mine had the late big brakes to start with (same as M030 / 928S4). My conversion involved new C2 Twin Turbo discs (322mm) and big red calipers. These calipers use the same size pistons as the S4 calipers, but are larger and have a deeper pad so provide a better swept volume in conjunction with the larger 322mm discs from the 993 TT C2.

HERE

The calipers are available in either black (928GTS) or red (993). Apart from the colour (how can anyone with 18" rims say red calipers are 'bling' ??), the calipers are designed to be fitted differently (leading / trailing), so although blacks will go straight on, reds will need the bleed nipples and crossover pipes swapped over (inverted) before fitting. Total cost of the conversion was about £1,000.

I'd be inclined to go for the correct hubs rather than introducing radial mounts in to the equation (unless going for a race spec setup with HUGE calipers mated to Porsche hubs), as the (original) parts are available.

Moving from the original 944T calipers to the later S4 setup is quite a major improvement according to those that have done it (ask John Sims) because of the much better swept area of the caliper and heat dissipation from the thicker and better vented discs. The move upwards from S4 to Big red/black is less dramatic. The feel is the same, but high speed and repeated use from high speed is considerably better.

I've still got the original setup from my Turbot and can't make my mind up whether to fit the calipers / drilled discs to my 944S

There are a lot of people on here who can give you advice on which pads to choose (Paul, Tony etc) from track day experiences.

I use Zimmerman drilled (sport) discs on the front of my 944S, and the rear of both 944's. These are a lot cheaper than porsche original items, but just as good. Try Bert or Eurocarparts.

To finish the job, re-paint your calipers (and get some new PORSCHE logo stickers from Damon). Job done [][]

Descriptions of my modifications and a lot of background information is Down the page HERE

Hope this helps, and I stand to be corrected for any factual errors.

 

[John Sims]

Moving from the original 944T calipers to the later S4 setup is quite a major improvement according to those that have done it (ask John Sims)

I first went from 220 brakes to second hand 250 brakes with second hand pads. These were marginaly better than the original, more fade resistant and gave a degree more confidence but were never totaly retina displacing. I never felt they totaly bedded in on my car due to the different wear charicteristics of the original owner.

I have just fitted new pads and new cross drilled 250 discs and the improvement is dramatic, and this is befor bedding in. Once nicely bedded, I have little doubt they will provide a significant improvement over the original 220 brakes, and should last the course on track days.

When you think about it, Porsche wouldn't have changed to bigger brakes - with all the disadvantages of greater unsprung weight - if they didn't consider them to be worth while.

 

[John Sims]

928S4 brakes are the same as late 944 Turbo (IO believe)
928GTS brakes are the same as Big Reds but in black, so need 17's

Presumably the Kokeln adaptors are cheaper and simpler than changing hubs?

Correct
Correct
Correct - assuming your steering ball joint rubbers clear the back of the thicker discs.

[]

 

[pantswagen]

does any one want 944 turbo stuff?

 

[John Sims]

does any one want 944 turbo stuff?

Like what?

 

[TTM]

Sadly, pictures don't appear anymore ... []

John, could you please sum up all the parts needed to upgrade from late offset T220 brakes to SE brakes ?
As far as I understand it :
1) Calipers
2) Discs
3) Radial mounts
Anything else required ?

PS : It is possible to use 7.5" Design 90 with Big Reds.

 

[eastendr]

ORIGINAL: TTM

Sadly, pictures don't appear anymore ... []

John, could you please sum up all the parts needed to upgrade from late offset T220 brakes to SE brakes ?
As far as I understand it :
1) Calipers
2) Discs
3) Radial mounts
Anything else required ?

PS : It is possible to use 7.5" Design 90 with Big Reds.

Big reds need minimum 17" rims.

 

[TTM]

ORIGINAL: eastendr
Big reds need minimum 17" rims.

Ok, I'll see if I have a picture of that car running Big Reds under D90s.

 

[John Sims]

John, could you please sum up all the parts needed to upgrade from late offset T220 brakes to SE brakes ?
As far as I understand it :
1) Calipers
2) Discs
3) Radial mounts
Anything else required ?

Bigger bolts to mount the radial mounts to the hub carrier and the calliper to the mount. These come with the radial mount kit if you buy it from new.

Because of the larger disc diameter you need to cut back or remove your original disc back plates. I monstered mine off with an angle grinder but, in retrospect, I should have cut less away so as to provide protection between the disc and the steering knuckle.

The pictures are still comming up on my machine. If they don't re-appear let my know and I'll e-mail them to you.

 

[TTM]

Thank you.

(Pictures come up, I went to another PC)