Buying advice on 996 Turbo

[Guest]

Hi,

I've recently started the search for a well specified early 996 Turbo with a manual gerbox and have a few questions that perhaps some of you can answer.

Has the 996 Turbo been facelifted or improved by Porsche at any point during it's model life, and if so is it worth spending the extra to buy a later model?

Does the RMS issue affect Turbos or it that confined to non turbocharged cars?

Which options are a must for resale?

Are there any buyers guides available either online, or in magazines that I could purchase back issues of?

What are your opinions of the resale value in three years time?

Are there any mechanical issues that affect the Turbos?

My apologies for asking so many questions in my first post.
Many thanks in advance.
[]

 

[Guest]

996TT was only offered in one look, there was no facelift.

There was an optional engine upgrade available (X50 option), although not from launch (cost was 8.5K).
The standard car produced 420bhp and 560Nm, X50 cars have 450bhp and 620Nm.
Fuel consumption is a little worse, but the extra urge is noticeable (although not essential).
Come resale, the X50 option seems to have little influence on the price (a grand or two maybe).
The Turbo S, which was the end-of-life model, had X50 as standard together with the ceramic brakes.

From a performance perspective, there is not much reason to go to for a newer car, unless you want the X50 option.
If you plan to chip/tune/tweak/enhance the performance, the X50 cars can take more, or at least are cheaper to upgrade.
They have larger intercooloers and turbos to start with, and have some gearbox mods.

Externally you only have aerokit as an option. At 150mph+ it is supposed to make it a fraction more stable, but the downside is the front lip juts out and is painted, so it costs a lot more to replace and is no longer really a "consumable".

For suspension, as standard they are all 10mm lower than a C2, and there is the option of going 20mm lower to match the GT3/2 ride height.
For track use this would be an advantage, for road use is removes some of the compliance and reduces grip on poorly surfaced roads. Few cars seem to have this.

The earlier cars did not have the sunroof as standard, and I think the pcm was not standard either. I think the Bose stereo was standard though.

RMS does not seem to affect the Turbo and GT2/3 cars, since these have a different crank case. There are 8 rather than 7 bearings, and the bearings themselves are different.
The bottom end (or perhaps this should be middle) is based on that from the 993GT2, which was used on the GT1. So it is race proven. The suspicion must be that it holds the crankshaft more firmly and there is less movement to wear the seal.

The options that are essential - hmmm, whatever it is that you are looking for, someone else is probably going to look for. Many things are standard so a lot comes down to personal choice.
I would avoid bucket seats and roll bar, since most owners use it more as a GT car.
I like the sports seats, but I guess the comfort electric ones would be better, since most cars are fitted with them and it fits the GT car mould. I don't like the ruched leather seats, but thats a personal choice.
Sunroof is largely irrelevant, I don't think it would make much difference.
The cars seem to be split about 50:50 between tiptronic or manual, so choose which one you prefer. The short shift was an option for the last 15-18 months.
I would make sure it has the Bose stereo and the sat nav screen, but that's about it.
Avoid green, since it seems a hard colour to shift, but any of the metallic colours are pretty safe.

I'm not sure if there are any specific buyers guides. The same general issues will apply as for all 996s though.
Discs are bigger than a C2, but just as prone to rusting.
The wheel bearings are larger, life expectancy depends on how you drive it but is unknown.
You have 4wd, pretty much the same system as on the C4, since most of the time 95% of the power goes to the rear wheels.
Front radiators can corrode if the ducts become full of leaves, etc.

The only real item I can think of would be the turbos. I don't know the life expectancy of these.

Of course, make sure you have it professionally checked out first, since if there is anything significant wrong, the bills could become quite large.

Resale value ....
Basically, who knows. At the moment the prices are under pressure.
I think there will be a recession next year, which will depress prices, but in 3 years time it could be picking up again.
If you buy one for 60, I would guess it would have to be worth at least 30K, how much more than that is anyones guess. I would prepare for the worst.
If petrol continues to go up, who knows. There are a finite number of people with deep enough pockets to run them. They are not in particularly short supply.

Mechanical issues - what is noticeable is the almost complete absence of posts complaining about problems. So I guess either people are not doing enough miles to find the problems yet, or they are quite robust.
You just need to keep the oil topped up - this is absolutely essential.

 

[Guest]

Wow!, Thanks for taking the time to answer so comprehensively Stuart.

I would have to buy a car that either has the balance of a Porsche warranty or buy one from Porsche myself.
I suppose my biggest concern was RMS failure, does anyone else have any info on which models are affected?

Your views regarding values interest me. Reading through various Porsche magazines I notice that some 964 Turbos are still commanding high 30's and 993 Turbos 40+.
Now I know that one day the 993 will be more valuable that the 996 what with the whole air cooled vs. water cooled and last of the line thing, but find it unlikely that anyone would pay more for a 964 turbo than the 996 variant, therefore I would expect 996's to settle at around the low 40's.

This is part of the reason of going for an earlier, low mileage car. They are already closer to the low 40's so have less depreciation left in them, and as there are no obvious differences between a W plate car and a 55 plate car I would expect in the longer term that the cars will have similar values as purchasers will buy on condition and spec rather than age.

I've also heard that the PCM system on early 996's is effectively redundant as it cannot be upgraded to include later maps, can anyone shed any light on this?

Thanks again

 

[THX911]

ORIGINAL: Superman

I suppose my biggest concern was RMS failure, does anyone else have any info on which models are affected?

As Stuart mentioned only the Turbo and GT2/3 are 'immuned'; all the other 996s and also 997s can have RMS failures (it also stretches to the Boxsters 986 and 987); With the expection of a handful most recent replacement done with the new tools have proved to fix the problem altogether.

 

[Guest]

The safest option is to buy the car from Porsche (OPC), since you will then get a 12 months warranty.
Additionally you can extend the warranty each year upto 120K miles or 10 years, subject to getting it serviced by them (or getting an annual inspection by them).

Note that the warranty will not cover the clutch or brakes.
The clutch costs about 1K to replace by OPC, and they will not give any guarantee, so it could fail a week after you get the car. There is no easy way to tell how much life is in it.
(The clutch has quite a distinctive feel, since it is hydraulically operated - there is no cable. This was done to make it easier to press the pedal since the springs are pretty strong to take the torque. If you go for the manual you will stall it lots when reversing, till you get used to it[]).
Brakes (discs) you can get checked out, or ask the OPC how much life is in them.

For RMS, the bottom end of the engine is the same for 996 (C2, C4, C2-cab, C4-cab, C4S, C4S cab, targa) and new 997 (C2, C2S). It is also the same for 986 and 987.
It was a new "clean-sheet" design for the watercooled cars.
It was intended to be lighter, stronger, easier and cheaper to manufacturer.

The turbo engine has little in common with the normally aspirated cars. It is a blown GT3 engine without the titanium conrods (although if have the money these can be added, then the rev limit can be raised which gives a top speed over 200).
The GT2/3 and TT have different bore diameter and strokes. The bores are "Nikasil" treated (which is expensive) whereas the other cars are produced "Lokasil" process. This was a new process developed by the KS company in cooperation with Porsche.
You do not need to worry about most of the issue raised on the other cars.

PCM is CD-ROM based. Porsche are no using a DVD based system.
As various other threads have pointed out, it seems there are no upgrade discs available (so the M6 toll road does not exit, for example).
There may be some upgrade for the first cars, but in general even with the latest ones the maps are not 3-4 years out of date.

For non turbo cars, the 993 may be more valuable than the 996, partly due to rarity value as anything else - it was made in much lower numbers.
For turbo cars, I think the same will not be so true. The turbo cars all have their own unique character, and the 996 is good enough to stand on its own.

Condition and mileage will be the main deciding factor on the price.
Although I reckon too low miles and infrequent usage are worse than regular usage.
If you buy a 3 or 4 year old car, then in 3 years it will be 6 or 7.
What will this be worth - it was a 90K car new, so is 50% reasonable? I think it may well be lower, since the car is just not rare enough.
There is increasing competition coming.
In 1-2 years time you may have some 400-500 bhp cars from the Japanese manufacturers. 1-2 year old 2nd hand cars from them may tempt people (Nissan and Toyota are pretty reliable).
Some people defected from the 996TT to get Lambo Gallardos. Not sure what their prices are doing.

Anyway, don't sell, then depreciation is not an issue.
Drive it as much as possible - there is no point saving it for someone else.
Mine's 14 months old, and has done more than 21K miles.
I don't intend to sell. In 5 years time I might buy something else, but it will be in addition to, not instead of.

 

[Rotorhead]

Just a few general thoughts.

You don't say whether you have owned a 911 before.

To my knowlegde RMS isn't an issue with the 996TT. However, don't let it put you off the normally aspirated cars either. It is an over-blown subject. My wife has had four Boxsters since 1997 and I've had two 996s since 1998 and we have only had one RMS replaced. It was done as part of an annual service and we didn't even know there was a problem. It is covered under warranty or extended warranty and, even if it isn't, it only costs c£700. A minute number of cars have apparently had multiple failures, but most have had none or one.

The 996 underwent a 'facelift' for 2002MY. This also incorporated a significant number of quality improvements and minor design changes. Some of these would also have applied to the 996TT.

PCM1 was used on the 996/996TT until the 2003MY. Yes, it was a poor system and, apparently, has not been supported with updates since 2001. PCM2 (03>) was much better but still not amongst the best. If sat nav is important then there are, apparently, better after-market integrated systems (at a price).

If I was to buy a 996TT I would consider a private purchase, providing the price saving was worthwhile. I would look for a late, low mileage, car that had been fastidiously looked after (and you can tell), with extended warranty, and I'd have it thoroughly checked out by an OPC.

It's impossible to accurately predict future values. Supply and demand, the economic climate and the 'feel good factor' all have an influence. The best examples of all models will always be most sought after. Poorly maintained and neglected 964s/993s/996s could fall dramatically, but the the nicest examples will hold their value best.

As Stuart says, the best thing is to buy the car you really want and keep it forever.

 

[gaxor]

My advise is don't do it. I used to be a meek non-assuming Volvo driver. Now my wife despairs of me, my children bearly tolerate me, and my credit card company loves me. They are highly adictive - KEEP AWAY - PLEASE FOR YOUR OWN SAKE!!!!

 

[Grant]

ORIGINAL: gaxor

My advise is don't do it. I used to be a meek non-assuming Volvo driver. Now my wife despairs of me, my children bearly tolerate me, and my credit card company loves me. They are highly adictive - KEEP AWAY - PLEASE FOR YOUR OWN SAKE!!!!

Like it Gary.

SUPERMAN: have a look at another thread dated 22/7/05 entitled 996TT buying advice.

 

[Guest]

I'm afraid that what Gary says in jest is partially true.
I tried hard to resist, but having driven it I was forced to spend all my money.
Be careful, unless you want to be hooked.

Whenever I travel, I start thinking about the car and look forward to getting back to drive it.
Arriving at the airport and having it waiting there is just fantastic. Even after 17 hours travelling, I get in it and don't feel tired.
One foot to the floor moment, and I know why I bought it.

There are occaisions when I think how much money I could have had in the bank, had I bought a 350Z and not bought a C4S then 996TT.
However, as soon as I sit in it, close the door and start the engine, all the objections seem to be less important. The best part is that after a long day, I sit in it, and work is bannished from my thoughts.

I thought these would be transient things, but it seems not.
I can't actually imagine being without it now.

Quite how a lump of metal designed and built by Germans to be functional, has managed to assume quite such a hold I don't know.

If you like turbo cars, the shove in the back, the turbo boost, the docile and manic behaviour, plus the speed, then it is hard to resist.
The driving style is quite different to normally aspirated cars, but once you get into it, it is great fun, even in the wet.
I would rather be in this in bad weather than other cars.
If you don't feel like trying, you can still make very quick progress with minimal effort. Driving at 50% is so easy.
Despite having more weight further behind the rear axle, it is quite well balanced. You can get all 4 wheels off the ground and it will land flat and be competely controllable. You can spin the wheels and slide it as well, without having to turn the stability control off.

All this and you don't have to compromise on the creature comforts.

Maybe I should get out more ....
In the interest of fairness, I should point out other cars are also available, and I may slightly biased.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for all the replies.

In reply to Oliver, I would love to buy a late, low miles car but funds dictate that an earlier car with around 20k on the clock is the right way to go for me, I am particularly attracted to this route as the car underwent no significant changes during its life span.

The car will be a daily driver and will be clocking around 20k a year, so it's likely that I will move it on before things start to fall off.

This is my first Porsche, though by no means my first performance car, my first love is Italian exotica. For that reason the Porsche will sit on the driveway, the garage being reserved for the more fragile cars.

The Turbo bug has already bitten me hard following a test drive in one on Saturday, one word - WOW!!!!! []

Thanks,

Luke

 

[sirees01]

I have a 996TT for sale if anyone is interested.

June 2003 car 14500 miles. TipS, Lapis Blue/Grey Leather. I bought from OPC in August 05.
Genuine reason for sale.

I will consider all genuine offers.

 

[Guest]

I'm looking for a manual gearbox, good luck with the sale however.
Luke

 

[blueSL]

Lots of good advice here, I switched from a 996 C4S to a 996 turbo and just love it. The exhaust note is a bit muted but otherwise the car is sensational. For the sort of driving I do, the ability to dispatch most anything else on the road makes for good, relaxed progress. You can take advantage of any overtaking opportunity. My car's done 12k miles, 4k since I got it 3 months ago including a 2k trip to Germany. Great car, highly recommended and makes my SL55 feel slow and lardy.

 

[riverproaudio]

Hi
I have a beautiful red 2004 12k miles 996 TT, manual, X50 Aero kit, tel, carbon fibre dash, gear, hand brake & steps, park assist, cruse control, and loads more.
Consider all genuine offers

 

[lee fulford]

ORIGINAL: blueSL

The exhaust note is a bit muted but otherwise the car is sensational.

Just fitted a Tubi-style.......makes it a different car.

 

[riverproaudio]

What kind of difference does the Tubi-style make?