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Cam belt change - roller question on 89 S2

garyadams

New member
Hi All, I've just replaced the cam belt and balancer belt, along with 5 rollers. The original belts were really loose and even the arm on the tension had siezed and some of the rollers sounded well worn. My problem is and if I refer to Clarks Garage drawing Eng 10 Cam shaft (timing) belt and Balancer Shaft Belt tension drawing hopefully attached, there is a balance belt tensioner roller and a balance belt idler roller, both lower left. The tensioner roller I removed did not have any spockets that i can remember and is just a plain roller, were the idler roller removed has spockets, is this correct ?
I took off the rolllers and lined them up so I replaced them in the same order as removed, but now I'm wondering if I've made a mistake! as I'm now trying to tension the belt I have two spockets really close to each other, remember my balance belt idler roller is a sprocket - is this correct ? or should it be a plain idler roller similar to the timing belt idler pully and then the balance belt tension roller be a sprocket?
If anyone knows of any photo's or advise I'd much apprieciate the help.
Many thanks
Gary


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Hi Gary,

The Balance Belt Tensioner Roller has teeth, the Balance Belt Idler Roller is smooth.

HTH,

Jim.
 
Hi Jim, Thanks for the confirmation, must of been getting tired last night and put them on the wrong way around, didn't think it looked right.
Hopefully should finish the job tonight, not to sure about the tensioning of the belts, will just initaily go by feel, as it can't be any worse than the belts I removed. The timing belt was hitting both the timing belt guide rail and also the outer plastic case.
Regards
Gary
 
Now there is a reason for joining the PCGB if ever I saw one... join the club, borrow the tool, set your belt tensions correctly.

I had a conversation once with a guy that told me you didn't need to use the correct tool to set belt tensions of a 944... then later in the same conversation told me how he rebuilt his cylinder head after the belt snapped! The balance belt tension is (supposed to be) so loose there is no way I could see how you can guess-set it anywhere near correctly...

Regards,

Tref.
 
Now there is a reason for joining the PCGB if ever I saw one... join the club, borrow the tool, set your belt tensions correctly.

And, re-check them after 1000 miles - so borrow it twice! [:)]
 
ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

Now there is a reason for joining the PCGB if ever I saw one... join the club, borrow the tool, set your belt tensions correctly.

And, re-check them after 1000 miles - so borrow it twice! [:)]

Absolutely. I cannot stress this enough. When my timing belt was replaced and I went back to my Indy after almost 1000 miles he did need to re-tension. There is alot of bad advice about out there - the best one is "I've replaced my timing belt loads of times without using a tensioner and I've been alright". Don't listen to this as the person is simply lucky - they should really end their sentence with "so far...". If a retension is required then decent Indy's will do this for free.
 
ORIGINAL: sawood12

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

Now there is a reason for joining the PCGB if ever I saw one... join the club, borrow the tool, set your belt tensions correctly.

And, re-check them after 1000 miles - so borrow it twice! [:)]

Absolutely. I cannot stress this enough. When my timing belt was replaced and I went back to my Indy after almost 1000 miles he did need to re-tension. There is alot of bad advice about out there - the best one is "I've replaced my timing belt loads of times without using a tensioner and I've been alright". Don't listen to this as the person is simply lucky - they should really end their sentence with "so far...". If a retension is required then decent Indy's will do this for free.

Simply Lucky? Has anyone come across any car where the owner has replaced the belts and one has broke / slipped? not me.

Rich
 
Would they admit it if they had? See my post above... for the sake of a peaceful evening, I didn't challenge the chap I was talking to over the quality of his belt change and subsequent rebuild.
I also know a member who will freely complain loudly that the OPC that changed his belts should have advised him to change his water pump too... since he had a £1k service... followed a couple of weeks later by a £1k pump change...

Maybe I come across more than average number of 944 owners, so the two tales of woe I have heard are the exceptions.

I've heard of another where the belt was left on too long...but I don't think that counts.

One I have never heard of though, is a belt failure that has been done by the book by an enthusiast.

Paul - what does it cost now? £20 isn't it, postage both ways? Apart from anything else, when it comes to looking at a prospective purchase, one of the first questions I ask is who does the belts, and how they are tensioned (and if it is DIY, which way round they turn the adjuster). Guess what I do, and advise any-one else to do if I am told it is not important? If saving £20 is important... then how much is being saved in other areas... like oil, filters, yadda, yadda...?

By the way... not having a go at any-one that maybe hasn't considered it important... but hoping I might change your mind!
 
Tref,

I subscribed to your way of thinking when I had the belts changed on my S2, about 3 years ago, just after I bought the car (yes, they need doing again soon.) I heard the various notes of caution on this forum (and others) and took it along to my indy to be done. I assumed that it really was different to doing the belts on any other car as it was a Porsche, therefore everything was done to a finer tolerance and you had to know what you were doing and you needed a special tool to test it otherwise the sky was garuanteed to cave in, besides which it is all working in a confined space yadda yadda yadda.

I took it back to the indy to be re-checked 1500 miles later. And watched him check the tensions. He didn't use a tool. Yes, the indie didn't use a tool. I queried this, and he said he was very surprised that I had even taken it to him for the work as it wasn't at all difficult and he knew I was well up to the job (I had previously chatted to him at length about changing cam belts on 928's - a very much more difficult task.) He tested the tension of the cam belt as you would on any other car (90degree turn on longest run with fingers), and showed me how tight (by feel) the balance belt should be.

Next time it is done, I will do it myself. I hear all you say, but it's just belts. Yes, they are important belts but they aren't difficult belts. I've changed cam belts on similar engines regularly since I was 17 (quite some time ago, thanks), and never had a problem.

I happen to think that there is a lot of 'black art' talked on forums like these. Jobs which are not too challenging have their difficulty significantly talked-up, both by people who have done it but mainly by those who haven't done it. And, before you know it, you have something approaching a complete myth about the difficulty of a job. It's not just belts; if you read some posts on here you'll believe that the brembo calipers used on S2's and turbos are near-impossible to refurbish if you have more than a nanometer or two of plate lift. Utter nonsense - that's a job that can be done by an enthusiastic amateur mechanic in an afternoon, if they have a half-decent workshop and a couple of neurones to rub together. Cutting-and-shutting the front struts to fit the Koni inserts is reputed to be a very difficult job - so difficult, in fact, that a well-known Porsche specialist makes a reasonable trade in doing this job for you if you want, and charging nearly three figures for the pleasure. However (funny to relate) when I tried it, I had two cut-and-shut struts with the inserts bolted in within an hour. Using nothing much more than a tape measure, a hacksaw and an electric drill. Ditto clutches - the prevailing mentality is that they are a HUGE job and you will be selling your kids and re-mortgaging your wife to pay for it to be done because of the size of the job. Again, not so; it's an easy job, and quite possible with no previous experience in a weekend if you have a competent friend to help.

They're cars. Just cars. They work like any other car. I have heard (that's to say read on a forum) about two or possibly three first-hand stories about cam belts letting go on 944's. I seem to recall that at least one of those involved a belt that hadn't been changed for 80k miles, and one in which the owner had heard 'funny noises' coming from the front of the engine for at least a thousand miles before it finally let go. 'Funny noises' that bore great resemblance to what I would call belt-slap. In both of these cases I found myself thinking the person was lucky to have got away with it for as long as he had.

This isn't a dig at you, more a dig at the mentality that often seems to develop on forums. If you don't know what you are doing, don't do it. But if you have a decent worksop, some good tools and the ability to think then don't be put off from jobs like this by nay-sayers on internet forums.

Just my $0.02's worth.


Oli.
 
I don't consider it a dig at all, and pretty much go along with what you say Oli... IMHO the hardest part of the belt change on a 944 is getting the crankshaft nut off. It isn't difficult... but it is also just as easy to do it "right" as it is to do it near enough.

I would encourage any enthusiastic owner to work on their own car - I believe making that easier is part of what the club is about. Years ago I was involved in setting up a belt changing seminar, and very well attended it was too. I paid some-one else to do my belts before that, I haven't since.

If I were having a go at any minority group, it would be those that skimp on maintenance (their choice), and then try and pass the car off as "well maintained", "a stunning example" etc. It pains me the number of new members to the club who have bought an expensive example only to then shell out on the side affects of lack of basic maintenance. The classics are fuel filters that cannot be removed without breaking other parts (they wouldn't be seized on if they were replaced regularly) and belt pulleys and water-pumps shot due to over tensioning - there are others - just trying to stay reasonably on topic!

I suspect it will continue to pain me, as there will always be an element who will buy something like a 944, and drive it without maintenance until the bills have mounted up, and then get "what they can" for it. The 944 will hide it well.
 
I've had two reports of member's cars having belt failures in three years. Both were over four years old, but under five years and low mileage. I'd suspect that age is as likely to be a factor as incorrect tensioning, as has been said near-enough might well be good-enough.

Personally I'd be happy to buy a car with a fastidious DIY history, just that I feel better knowing it's been done correctly, using the right tools, by whoever has worked on it. I'm sure that an indie who's tensioned 1000s of 944 belts can do it by feel, no DIYer would have that level of experience. As the tools are available to borrow, free, it seems odd not to use them. [8|]
 
ORIGINAL: sawood12
There is alot of bad advice about out there - the best one is "I've replaced my timing belt loads of times without using a tensioner and I've been alright". Don't listen to this as the person is simply lucky - they should really end their sentence with "so far...". If a retension is required then decent Indy's will do this for free.

It seems to me you are mixing replacing the belts with having them retightened.
One can retighten them by feel and they will go for 5 years/50k miles - that's what my S2 did after I had retightened the balance shaft belt by feel ; the T-belt did not need retightening. Both were still tight enough at the time replacement was due.
I reckon people who tighten belts by feel yet see belt failure are probably excessively mechanically insensible or are seriously ham-fisted and/or were sold belts of poor quality.
 
One can retighten them by feel and they will go for 5 years/50k miles - that's what my S2 did after I had retightened the balance shaft belt by feel ; the T-belt did not need retightening. Both were still tight enough at the time replacement was due.

As I said. I've only had two members out of about 1000 report a belt failure. Both were over four years old but less than five, with less than the recommended mileage.

They might well go for five years, but some won't, and it's potentially your engine that will be the victim. I can't stress highly enough that you don't want to risk going over the recommended four years.
 
I have lost count of the phonecalls and/or emails I have had over the years from members with a broken cam/balance belt but it has to be at least a dozen.

Admittedly I have not heard of one in the past couple of years - maybe the message is getting through.

Similarly with the camchain on 16v models. Once it was a frequent news item to hear of a failure - now they are much rarer

Which is a very good thing [:)]
 
Not sure about the belts as I'm going to do that job myself in the next few weeks (hopefully)! so I lack the experience in 944 belts, But I do agree wholeheartedly with this comment:-
"
if you read some posts on here you'll believe that the brembo calipers used on S2's and turbos are near-impossible to refurbish if you have more than a nanometer or two of plate lift. Utter nonsense - that's a job that can be done by an enthusiastic amateur mechanic in an afternoon, if they have a half-decent workshop and a couple of neurones to rub together. "

Callipers are easy to refurb when you know how- need some decent tools though!
 

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