Center Gravity

[Buddy]

Last Saturday I took my CS to Center Gravity and had a track rod changed then a full alignment, the difference transformed the car! It was good before but after !!!!!!!! Fantastic! Since I do about 50/50 of A/B and Motorway I had front set to allow quick turn in and the rear to straight ahead running the result just as I wanted, it doesn't wander off line on poor surfaces and camber has only a slight effect but I have to be ready for any oversteer on the front and then control it so much better than understeer which drops cornering speeds and does little for safety as it's uncontrollable, it just provides a bottle out at a lower speed!

 

[dpoynton]

Took my car to OPC Nottingham 31 May for major service and they warned me re the need for a geo check given uneven wear on front tyres. Been to CG today, met Chris, Jayne and Pete. In the meantime the Norway trip played havoc with the tread wear rate as Clive knows all too well! - see pic. What helpful, informative people. Pete did the geo on my car, drove it first to see what might be wrong, on the ramps, Pete working on it, me cleaning it low down and underneath. Toe and camber all over the place! Now sorted. More stable, much easier to drive, similar to brand new Cayman loan car two months ago. One new part on front left wheel (forgot what it was called!). Just have to wait for TOTEM day when Carole will get to drive it for a distance, she if she notices the difference. I certainly did! Another cheer for CG. David

 

[garyw]

David, pleased that you got the car to Chris and that Pete looked after you. It is amazing what a total difference they can make to the handling- I hope that Carole does notice the difference as its awe inspiring when done right

 

[MrDemon]

ORIGINAL: Buddy Last Saturday I took my CS to Center Gravity and had a track rod changed then a full alignment, the difference transformed the car! It was good before but after !!!!!!!! Fantastic! Since I do about 50/50 of A/B and Motorway I had front set to allow quick turn in and the rear to straight ahead running the result just as I wanted, it doesn't wander off line on poor surfaces and camber has only a slight effect but I have to be ready for any oversteer on the front and then control it so much better than understeer which drops cornering speeds and does little for safety as it's uncontrollable, it just provides a bottle out at a lower speed!

you had the rear with no toe in, !! I doubt that. this does not make 1 bit of sense either "I have to be ready for any oversteer on the front " lol you do drive backwards ? As for not being able to control understeer, lift off a bit and it should tuck back in. you don't want the car over steering every where, race cars are all set to understeer 1st. to quote the F1 site "Although in real life, a slightly understeering car (very slight) is always faster than an oversteering car." think you need to post your geo so we can see what you really had

 

[Buddy]

I didn't say zero toe in on the rear, I said set for straight ahead running which means there is toe in which gives better straight line running, I think you need to read properly. Also improved turn in is done by a reduction on the front end toe in and it needs a little more attention at first at the initiation of the turn due simply to the change but it's soon achieved, understeer changing to oversteer is not a desirable thing as you can go from no turn initiation to snapping across due to losing speed with the wheels turned. David, Glad that you got the alignment sorted by Pete, the day I drove down there Pete was in a BMW behind me as I was approaching for a number of miles and by the time we arrived he had analysed just what my car had wrong in the geo setting, cambers, toe ins and such, I had considered some lowering but Chris found that I already had the thinnest shims and that my car rides a few mm lower than std due no doubt to the settling over time, glad that I wasn't in it when they did the damper check, my stomach couldn't have taken that vibration but for saying it's still the original shocks and the car had done over 65,000mls I was very pleased.

 

[MrDemon]

I did read it, and it still reads you set the rear to straight ahead I run no run toe up front, front 7mm spacers and neg 1.2 camber. A wider front track with really helps turn in. But yes it makes a big difference and much more drivable.

 

[Dylan1]

ORIGINAL: MrDemon I did read it, and it still reads you set the rear to straight ahead I run no run toe up front, front 7mm spacers and neg 1.2 camber. A wider front track with really helps turn in. But yes it makes a big difference and much more drivable.

kevan DID say straight ahead it was you who said ZERO toe in not the same thing obviously!!

 

[tscaptain]

Thing that confuses me, a bit, is how else would you set up the rear other than for straight ahead running? Or the front for that matter. My simple understanding is that the front toe in/out changes the straight line stability/turn in and the rear is always set to toe in as the toe will go out under acceleration and in under braking. Of course you then play with the front and rear cambers to change the under/oversteer and stuff![] Whatever, I'm sure it was set up to perfection at CG[]

 

[MrDemon]

ORIGINAL: dyllan

ORIGINAL: MrDemon I did read it, and it still reads you set the rear to straight ahead I run no run toe up front, front 7mm spacers and neg 1.2 camber. A wider front track with really helps turn in. But yes it makes a big difference and much more drivable.

kevan DID say straight ahead it was you who said ZERO toe in not the same thing obviously!!

when you talk about geo's you talk about where the wheels are, straight ahead = zero toe, one would never say I have just set my car up for straight ahead ..... one would also never say "I have to be ready for any oversteer on the front " as that's not even possible just being picky but how else do people learn if you don't point stuff out ;-)

 

[Dylan1]

I have no problem with your desire to educate whoever wishes to be educated !! I was merely pointing out exactly what the OP said ,rather than commenting on your take on it .

 

[Buddy]

While I may have phrased things unconventionally, for a straight ahead running on the rear you will have toe in, under acceleration the load will have a tendency to increase this depending on the radial arm movement to the front which travels through an arc so depending on the static point of the setting will vary, If the radius arm is horizontal for instance then it will increase the toe in as the tail "tucks down" under acceleration, under braking the reverse will happen to a point in the arc. Two companies got this wrong in the early 70's on mid engined cars the AC ME3000 and the Lancia Monte Carlo both had accidental "Toe Out" which caused them to have poor handling due simply to someone getting their +/-mixed up. Now to the front, conventionally we use toe in to promote straight running and in part reducing a tendency to bump steer, a reduction in the toe in from the standard setting according to Chris improves turn in. This he set mine to and it works I won't give the settings which I do have a copy of as he earns his living with this info and I consider it his, I just gain the benefit. Camber has changed significantly in the history of the car, early sports and race cars had negative camber at the front with the top of the wheels leaning out at what looks an extreme angle but the tyre walls were then as high as the width of tread a different thing from our more rigid tyre construction, Camber is used again in part to reduce the bump steer and to promote better handling, several independently sprung cars of the 50's through to the 70's had only single joints on the drive shafts with a tendency to "Tuck Under" in the bumps which meant that camber on the rear could reverse if you "Took Air" some smaller Triumphs and the early Beetle were both notorious for this. On our cars we have the luxury of being able to adjust so many factors for road and track that we can set up for our own individual tastes, spring and shock heights and rates etc but to get a true and accurate explanation of what effects what I would suggest talking with someone at a good alignment specialist CG is my preferred place, others may have someone to turn to in their own area. Take your pick.

 

[dunc]

early sports and race cars had negative camber at the front with the top of the wheels leaning out at what looks an extreme angle

Apologies for being pedantic but that's +ve camber if the wheel leans out at the top. Dunc.

 

[Matt Seabrook]

ORIGINAL: dunc

early sports and race cars had negative camber at the front with the top of the wheels leaning out at what looks an extreme angle

Apologies for being pedantic but that's +ve camber if the wheel leans out at the top. Dunc.

Your not wrong

 

[Motorhead]

And, being even more pedantic Matt, don't you mean you're not your. Jeff