Changing Spec from M002 > M003

[carreraboy]

Had a couple of interesting calls recently from Lightweight owners who are looking at "modifying" to Clubsport Spec. Which on the face of it should be pretty straight forward, with the biggest structural addition the Matter Cage fully welded. I have heard of quotes from £5,000 to £8,000 plus vodka and tonic.

Has anyone here contemplated this, as I explained it becomes a less useable car for the road, but feel personally that as long as the work is down professionally with original parts, should actually enhance the value, while keeping all the original parts... any thoughts [8|]

 

[clubsport]

Personally, I think it is a waste of time...........if you have a nice M002 why would you want to permanently weld a full cage into it?.(bolt in, is less permannet in my view).....Probably easier to sell the lightweight and buy an NGT instead. You will pay more £££ as there are less of them, but should you ever sell you are likely to get the difference back and maybe a little more if values hold in / increase?
I don't understand the £5-8k, surely the only difference is welding a cage in and stripping the interior, cage can be done for £2-3k depending where you go that is a quite a difference to have carpets removed, (maybe nomex seats at a £grand), but sale of origial leather recaros cover that, even if money is spent having some of the interior re-sprayed as badly as they did it inside the factory M003 cars.

 

[65 mat]

The problem is finding a clubsport for sale( or the waiting) . Another factor is that the initial outlay may be too great for some people to afford.
The idea of a weld in cage makes sense if the car is intended for track use, as it provides much greater rigidity creating a far superior driving experience. Yes a bolt in cage can be removed more easily, however welding still has to take place during the fitting of the mounting plates and you don't get that same level of rigididity.
To be honest this whole idea interests me however I think the "figures" which Des refers to seem rather steep as I'm sure he would agree.[8|]

 

[Tony]

Long term I'm not sure I see the point. It makes the car completely track focused - and would be expensive to change back. It's might even reduce the value long term - not a genuine N/GT, no competition history less useable on the road.
Of course somebody will try and pass one off as genuine - but caveat emptor as they used to say.
If you own a genuine N/GT or clubsport it has value in it's 'specialness', if you convert a lightweight is less really more? If your going to compete with it it makes some sense, but if not and you're not going to try and pass it off as genuine why do it?

Or am I just getting old []

BTW most N/GT's have the big fuel tank which will add a bit to the cost.

Tony

 

[carreraboy]

Just throwing the concept around on behlf of some enquiries, it is very much an individual thing, trading off the useability of the Lightweight, but correct me if I'm wrong, a factory welded Matter Cage was available from the factory. Seen a nice yellow car with one with a factory welded from production full matter cage.

Agree the cost for just a cage seems high but think the figures I was given includes the complete job. With Euro N-GT prices (if you can find one) moving more diproportionally ahead this option may make sense to the individual.

 

[65 mat]

Did the yellow one still have the carpets Des? "DSCboys" car also springs to mind.
Here's a question for everyone...if given the opportunity, how many "lightweight" owners would swap their car for a Clubsport...and when I say swap, I mean a straight swap? Do people really actually prefer the lightweight? Now consider that thought of the M003 conversion.[:-]

 

[carreraboy]

Yes the yellow car had full lightweight interior, the cage was in matching body colour .... obviously lost the side air vents ....

 

[clubsport]

Mat, the answer to the question you pose, may well be different with the benefit of hind sight. []

 

[65 mat]

ORIGINAL: clubsport

Mat, the answer to the question you pose, may well be different with the benefit of hind sight. []

I can see where you are coming from Clubsport...oh go on then, you can do a straight swap with me for my lightweight![][]

 

[ChrisW]

Everything is possible, but the further one gets from the standard spec, in general, the less the value of the car.

On the originality stakes, even remedial work is often frowned upon --- until the point where all have had remedial work or rotted away --- at which point the quality of the work is paramount.

The CS differences are well documented and all seem to be different in one way or another ----I'm not even sure that they were built identically !

Hence the correct vin number and build panel impressions is the measure of a correct and original car, even if repaired.

Take this away, and what do you have left ?

A 964C2 can be converted into an "RS" for far less than the cost of an RS, so why not an RS CS ?

Why compromise a good RS to build a bad RS CS ?

The 993RS CS was in the same vin series as the 993RS, but the 964 RS CS has it's own numerical series making it a proper and clearly identifiable N-GT.

If the fourth digit from the right is not a 9, it isn't an N-GT. Simple.

 

[ChrisW]

ORIGINAL: Tony

Long term I'm not sure I see the point. It makes the car completely track focused - and would be expensive to change back. It's might even reduce the value long term - not a genuine N/GT, no competition history less useable on the road.
Of course somebody will try and pass one off as genuine - but caveat emptor as they used to say.
If you own a genuine N/GT or clubsport  it has value in it's 'specialness', if you convert a lightweight is less really more? If your going to compete with it it makes some sense, but if not and you're not going to try and pass it off as genuine why do it?

Or am I just getting old []

BTW most N/GT's have the big fuel tank which will add a bit to the cost.

Tony

For interest my N-GT has the 77l tank.

In terms of the difference, on the track there is a very big difference as demonstrated at Croft just over a week ago.

In terms of the experience on road, unless for a very long journey, how raw do your prefer your steak ? How special do you want your driving experience ?

To me the N-GT is RS + 100%.

 

[clubsport]

ChrisW, in you extensive experience of Porsche cars do you not consider the 993 M003 to be a proper Clubsport or NGT? have you driven 964 & 993 RS & CS versions on teh same track to compare?
If you look at the spec sheets, there are in fact more differences between the 993 M002 and M003 than there are between the 964 variants.

 

[ChrisW]

Clubsport, my experience is only my experience and not vast by comparison to some -- but I have taken particular interest in the 964RS.

I have driven a 993 3.8 but never a 993RS (would love to), even more an RS C/S. If Porsche say it's a legitimate version, it is.

There is a very interesting article on the 993 RS C/S in this month's Flat Six --- only two in France.

At Croft at the end of the day we were fast lapping in three 964RS --- mine, Kevin's and Paul's --- and I gave a couple of passenger rides in the CS.

I was told by both that there was a huge difference in the experience by comparison to the MOO2's, and the C/S did prove faster for whatever reason. Hardly quantitative !

But I also compare the C/S to my RHD RS an a LHD RS which I owned.

On the entry to the chicane there are some difficult undulations which the CS seemed to handle particularly well and the whole structure seems to generate a sense of composure that can really be leant on.

How would my RHD have compared ? Well, it has a road geo for a start and is on medium soft ARB settings The CS is running -2.5 and hardest arb settings.

How would your 993 MOO3 compare to this ?

 

[65 mat]

It would be interesting to hear how Laurence Gibbs has gone on with the fitment of his weld in cage.

It is correct what you are saying Chris...the clubsport felt totally planted compared to the lightweights. Truely awesome![] I will certainly be adjusting my ARB's to the stiffest settings to see if there is an improvement.