clubsport for sale
- Thread starter rmurphy5
- Start date
The little 3.2 'Clubbie' - one of my all time favourite 911s
Beautifully built, driver focussed lightweight spec, fast, fun and wonderfully tactile on challenging A and B roads, gorgeous noise, everything a 'real' 911 should be. Better 'on road' than the later RSs, and next best thing to a 2.7RST [8D].
Beautifully built, driver focussed lightweight spec, fast, fun and wonderfully tactile on challenging A and B roads, gorgeous noise, everything a 'real' 911 should be. Better 'on road' than the later RSs, and next best thing to a 2.7RST [8D].
Guest
New member
Here here. Although I can only say that without the benefit of comparing against a 2.7 RST (unfortunatley). I love the 3.2, but for me the additional feel, feedback and pure fun of a clubsport is well worth the additional cost. I think the changes Porsche made to the 3.2 to create the clubsport should'nt be underestimated........
ClubSport 911
New member
Here Here (Here)... ! [
]
Life is all about Balance... and with the 911 Clubsport, you have just that. ! (But then again, I would say that wouldn't I...)
]Life is all about Balance... and with the 911 Clubsport, you have just that. ! (But then again, I would say that wouldn't I...)
TopCarrera
New member
It's probably very hard to underestimate the changes because unlike RS models they don't amount to much over the standard car. Don't get me wrong I love the 3.2 Clubsport, ever since I first drooled over a brand new one in the AFN showroom in Guildford (I was a penniless student at the time!) they have held a special place in my heart. Their value must only be based on their exclusivity. A simple early 3.2 (915 box) coupe without sunroof or extras with a mild remap and rebuilt suspension will be just as light and at least as fast for half the cost of a CS. Where does the difference in feel come from? 915 boxes are weaker than the G50 but quite a bit lighter and a reputedly sap a little less power than the G50.
The list of weight saving modifications to the Club Sport is far more detailed and extensive than many people realise. Aside from the obvious differences, there are numerous other subtle changes such as different, non-impact, bumpers, a lighter wiring loom, stiffer engine mounts, shorter shift, etc, plus the slightly modified and blue-printed SP engine.
As many UK 3.2 SEs are quite highly spec'd, the Club Sport is typically about 80kg lighter. That's similar to the difference between a 2.7RS Lwt (M471) and an RS Touring (M472).
Of course someone could try to replicate a Club Sport in the same way that people have replicated RSs, often with good results, but it wouldn't be the real thing.
Incidentally, George Konradsheim (who co-wrote Carrera RS) was recently looking to acquire a Club Sport and found an early example (probably a pre-production prototype) with a 915 gearbox. Yes it would be a bit lighter, but the G50 shift is so much quicker and reliable, especially on track.
As many UK 3.2 SEs are quite highly spec'd, the Club Sport is typically about 80kg lighter. That's similar to the difference between a 2.7RS Lwt (M471) and an RS Touring (M472).
Of course someone could try to replicate a Club Sport in the same way that people have replicated RSs, often with good results, but it wouldn't be the real thing.
Incidentally, George Konradsheim (who co-wrote Carrera RS) was recently looking to acquire a Club Sport and found an early example (probably a pre-production prototype) with a 915 gearbox. Yes it would be a bit lighter, but the G50 shift is so much quicker and reliable, especially on track.
Guest
New member
Andrew (TopCarrera) has hit on something I've believed for some time now, and that is the '84 Carrera being similar to the later Clubsport, not only in weight, but also in quickness, speed and rawness. I also believe, that somewhere in the depths of Porsche knowledge, you might just find that the CS may have been introduced to get the 911 back to the original '84 Carrera standard?
The SE specification (generally speaking) was originally designated for cars which carried the aerodynamic aids to front and rear, slightly stiffer suspension and generally, Fuchs Alloys - and only got heavier due to all the 'extras' that comfort and convenience brought, ie C16 cars for example.
I don't agree with Oliver about the G50 - I know you know I like the 915 Mike, but in all honesty, it is a great box to use and I believe keeps the 911 honest. It is considerably lighter and although it is not as ultimately strong as the G50 (but I say that without specific qualification), the biggest problem with the 915 is keeping it cool and hence the gearbox oil cooler.
Moving back to my point, if you compare the power and weight with the gearbox ratios of the 915 (72,67 & 69) gearbox cars, only made under MY 1984, they are almost on a par with the later Clubsport.
This is a great point and one which I would like to hear further comment. My 1984 car (which you know very well Mike), was specifically sourced many years ago, I recon would perform as well as a Clubsport under any condition. Although I have a sunroof, I do not have any of the weighty extras.
Now for the official weight bit : SE - 1210kg : '84 SE - 1160 kg - CS : 1160 kg (I accept however that this CS weight may in practice be a little lighter - perhaps as low as 1135kg).
The point I'm making, if you can't find a good Clubsport, buy arguably the best 3.2 Carrera made, a 1984 Coupe SE in Eurospec C00 (non cat) with 930/20 Engine and 915-72 Gearbox.
Comments please........
The SE specification (generally speaking) was originally designated for cars which carried the aerodynamic aids to front and rear, slightly stiffer suspension and generally, Fuchs Alloys - and only got heavier due to all the 'extras' that comfort and convenience brought, ie C16 cars for example.
I don't agree with Oliver about the G50 - I know you know I like the 915 Mike, but in all honesty, it is a great box to use and I believe keeps the 911 honest. It is considerably lighter and although it is not as ultimately strong as the G50 (but I say that without specific qualification), the biggest problem with the 915 is keeping it cool and hence the gearbox oil cooler.
Moving back to my point, if you compare the power and weight with the gearbox ratios of the 915 (72,67 & 69) gearbox cars, only made under MY 1984, they are almost on a par with the later Clubsport.
This is a great point and one which I would like to hear further comment. My 1984 car (which you know very well Mike), was specifically sourced many years ago, I recon would perform as well as a Clubsport under any condition. Although I have a sunroof, I do not have any of the weighty extras.
Now for the official weight bit : SE - 1210kg : '84 SE - 1160 kg - CS : 1160 kg (I accept however that this CS weight may in practice be a little lighter - perhaps as low as 1135kg).
The point I'm making, if you can't find a good Clubsport, buy arguably the best 3.2 Carrera made, a 1984 Coupe SE in Eurospec C00 (non cat) with 930/20 Engine and 915-72 Gearbox.
Comments please........
One observation, Tony, I think the 915 works better in a lhd 911. The gate seems better suited to right hand operation.
The raison d'etre for the Club Sport ? Well back in the late '80s Porsche were on a bit of a roll. The 911, which was due to be killed off at the start of the decade, was now an '80s icon with a bouyant future investment programme, and Porsche were indulging themselves. Cabriolets and widebodies had expanded the US market, the 959 was a showcase for future technology and the Speedster would be a retro-design extravagance.
But this didn't please everyone. What about the basic, purist lightweight 911, that could be used day to day and tracked or raced at the weekend? There was no justification for an RS, as the were no requirements to homologate the out-going 3.2 Carrera. So, the Club Sport was conceived. Reduce weight by throwing out anything unnecessary, simplify other items, enhance the sporting credentials and optimise the engine and chassis. Not too costly, and you have a 911 for the 'faithful'.
The Club Sport was probably driven by the marketing department, but the result was very good - you only have to read the road tests at the time. And, with its relative rarity, the premium CSs command begins to make sense.
The raison d'etre for the Club Sport ? Well back in the late '80s Porsche were on a bit of a roll. The 911, which was due to be killed off at the start of the decade, was now an '80s icon with a bouyant future investment programme, and Porsche were indulging themselves. Cabriolets and widebodies had expanded the US market, the 959 was a showcase for future technology and the Speedster would be a retro-design extravagance.
But this didn't please everyone. What about the basic, purist lightweight 911, that could be used day to day and tracked or raced at the weekend? There was no justification for an RS, as the were no requirements to homologate the out-going 3.2 Carrera. So, the Club Sport was conceived. Reduce weight by throwing out anything unnecessary, simplify other items, enhance the sporting credentials and optimise the engine and chassis. Not too costly, and you have a 911 for the 'faithful'.
The Club Sport was probably driven by the marketing department, but the result was very good - you only have to read the road tests at the time. And, with its relative rarity, the premium CSs command begins to make sense.
TopCarrera
New member
Of course I have to agree with this because I chose my car eight years ago because of the very reasons Tony highlights.
My car LHD 84 Coupe was supplied new to Bahrain. (Does have full 231hp motor). It has no sunroof, no powerseats, no central locking, no rear wipe, no leather etc... It has the ZF LSD option. My 915 box has been rebuilt at quite modest cost and in all honesty I really don't find it much slower to use than the G50 (I have driven several 915 and G50 cars). The 915 does tend to be baulkier at slower speeds but on the move with spirited driving it seems to become smoother. Any additional CS weight saving features will not really amount to much more than the difference in weight between the G50 and the 915 so I doubt my car is much heavier (if at all) than a CS.(I know that in the club racing championship the 915 is preferred to the G50 in the class1 3.2 911s). Interestingly last winter the bumpers came off for repainting - the tubes were not hydraulic but the simple collapsible type.
Last year I had new Bilstein HD shocks, all new bushes etc .. and geometry set. Had ECU remapped on rolling road (Wayne Schofield) and took power to just beyond 250 bhp. My car retains the stock torsion bars and anti-roll bars and at some point I may choose to upgrade these. (The later cars benefited from larger diameter ar- bars and larger rear tbars). I have never driven A CS but would be surprised if my fairly standard 84 car with these few very modest "tweeks" is not actually as fast or probably a little quicker than a standard CS ..........
If you buy a CS you are buying for the exclusivity of a standard low-volume porsche special NOT a different driving experience as is certainly the case between a standard 964 and a 964RS for example ...........
I think we've hi-jacked someone's For Sale ad, so perhaps this should be under a different thread.
However, when the 964RS was developed it was very much track compromised, which was not to everyone's taste. The 'Club Sport' is far less compromised and still makes a very rewarding fast road car, and a good one does feel very special.
Guest
New member
TopCarrera, I think you're absolutley right that the value of a CS is based on its exclusivity, but that is the same with many rare Porsches. I am sure you get the same power/weight ratio with an 84 Carrera in the spec you describe and therefore the same drive. I agree with you totally there.
My point earlier in this thread " the changes Porsche made to the standard 3.2 in making the CS should not be underestimated" was made for the following reason;
A CS could easily be reproduced, but in reality would anyone really want to ? Imagine taking a 3.2 in good engine / bodywork condition. In the condition mine is in, if it was a standard 3.2, would be worth about £15,000. If I then reproduced the CS suspension, fitted an LSD if not already done, removed the heavy power seats and replaced with lighter, removed the central locking, removed the power windows and replaced with windups, removed the rear seats and sound insulation, put on CS graphics, changed the engine mounts, fitted a short shift to the gearbox, removed the sunroof, changed the front spoiler when taking out the front fogs and remap the engine, would cost me approx £5000 (very approx !). BUT what would I have ? Neither an original 3.2 or a CS. I would have a great track day toy but what value are they ?
Even with these mods I would not have the enjoyment of knowing I own a rare Porsche, or have a blueprinted engine and different ratios to match the higher rev limit. So taking the value of the car at the beginning of this thread I think a CS is very good value.
As you know, driving an RS, weight is everthing in a car. Weight does not just slow acceleration and top speed, but it means you can get on the brakes later, change direction easier, settle a car mid corner easier and get on the power earlier on exit. My point is that by stripping the weight in a 3.2 to obtain this means you create a hybrid car which does not make financial sence.
My point earlier in this thread " the changes Porsche made to the standard 3.2 in making the CS should not be underestimated" was made for the following reason;
A CS could easily be reproduced, but in reality would anyone really want to ? Imagine taking a 3.2 in good engine / bodywork condition. In the condition mine is in, if it was a standard 3.2, would be worth about £15,000. If I then reproduced the CS suspension, fitted an LSD if not already done, removed the heavy power seats and replaced with lighter, removed the central locking, removed the power windows and replaced with windups, removed the rear seats and sound insulation, put on CS graphics, changed the engine mounts, fitted a short shift to the gearbox, removed the sunroof, changed the front spoiler when taking out the front fogs and remap the engine, would cost me approx £5000 (very approx !). BUT what would I have ? Neither an original 3.2 or a CS. I would have a great track day toy but what value are they ?
Even with these mods I would not have the enjoyment of knowing I own a rare Porsche, or have a blueprinted engine and different ratios to match the higher rev limit. So taking the value of the car at the beginning of this thread I think a CS is very good value.
As you know, driving an RS, weight is everthing in a car. Weight does not just slow acceleration and top speed, but it means you can get on the brakes later, change direction easier, settle a car mid corner easier and get on the power earlier on exit. My point is that by stripping the weight in a 3.2 to obtain this means you create a hybrid car which does not make financial sence.
Guest
New member
I wholly agree with Mike that the 915 is easier to use in lhd cars.
Of course the CS is an exclusive limited production and it will always demand more attention than a standard Carrera.
Here's another point : in 1987 when the G50 came into production, Porsche should have gone for the 3.5 engine capacity (as was being tested in Bott's own 911) and then I think the G50 would really have come into its own.
I think Porsche were stuck in a supply/demand vs enthusiast/driving cleft stick - driven by sales yet critisised by enthusiasts for 'padding' their cars for comfort. The CS was meant to break that comfort zone and bring the 911 back to its real purpose. I think the CS is a great Carrera and really represents a 911 - but I think it would have been even better with a 915 gearbox. I think(?) that would have realistically lowered the weight to below 1100 kgs.
Why Porsche chose not to call the Clubsport an RS is arguable, but I believe that it was never intended to be an RS - ie, not an absolute lightweight racer, but only a road-racer for enthusiasts. One point here, is does the fact that only a few hundred were made, reflect on a lack of demand for the CS at that time?
Of course the CS is an exclusive limited production and it will always demand more attention than a standard Carrera.
Here's another point : in 1987 when the G50 came into production, Porsche should have gone for the 3.5 engine capacity (as was being tested in Bott's own 911) and then I think the G50 would really have come into its own.
I think Porsche were stuck in a supply/demand vs enthusiast/driving cleft stick - driven by sales yet critisised by enthusiasts for 'padding' their cars for comfort. The CS was meant to break that comfort zone and bring the 911 back to its real purpose. I think the CS is a great Carrera and really represents a 911 - but I think it would have been even better with a 915 gearbox. I think(?) that would have realistically lowered the weight to below 1100 kgs.
Why Porsche chose not to call the Clubsport an RS is arguable, but I believe that it was never intended to be an RS - ie, not an absolute lightweight racer, but only a road-racer for enthusiasts. One point here, is does the fact that only a few hundred were made, reflect on a lack of demand for the CS at that time?
ClubSport 911
New member
Thiis thread, and it's discussion topics interests me greatly because I happen to feel that "everyone is right".
It is true that the modifications Porsche made to create the CS, came at a time when money was stretched and the designers were not allowed to make an "RS" version, so they did what they could with the DM. However it's also true that some of the changes are more meaningful to the spirit of "lightweight" than having any practical effect
(example..why only one sunvisor but two mirrors..I know which weighs more !)
Also, I've long been a fan of the 915 box since I drove one that had been set up by Francis Tuthill - it was slick as you like and as mentioned, they are a lot lighter than the G50 box. Georg Konradsheim has a couple of CS's in his collection, reporting that the CS with the 915 (pre-production) is every bit as engaging as the CS with the G50 but the 915 carries a stigma (anybody help here ?)
The argument of "'84 Carrera vs. CS" is one that is interesting, inasmuch as they are both pretty basic cars so the point about the design objectives with the CS may well be valid, but one thing is for sure, the CS seems to have a driving experience that for some reason is more than the sum of it's parts.
People much more experience than I, and with many Porsche's in their collection, seem to have a soft spot for the balance and feel of the CS and indeed, road manners are impeccable. Does the lower weight account for this ? Or, is it the lack of sound deadening that takes you one step closer to the road ?
Whatever your choice of Porsche, special models like this will always appeal to certain drivers, hence the value people place upon them.
Vive la Difference !
It is true that the modifications Porsche made to create the CS, came at a time when money was stretched and the designers were not allowed to make an "RS" version, so they did what they could with the DM. However it's also true that some of the changes are more meaningful to the spirit of "lightweight" than having any practical effect
(example..why only one sunvisor but two mirrors..I know which weighs more !)
Also, I've long been a fan of the 915 box since I drove one that had been set up by Francis Tuthill - it was slick as you like and as mentioned, they are a lot lighter than the G50 box. Georg Konradsheim has a couple of CS's in his collection, reporting that the CS with the 915 (pre-production) is every bit as engaging as the CS with the G50 but the 915 carries a stigma (anybody help here ?)
The argument of "'84 Carrera vs. CS" is one that is interesting, inasmuch as they are both pretty basic cars so the point about the design objectives with the CS may well be valid, but one thing is for sure, the CS seems to have a driving experience that for some reason is more than the sum of it's parts.
People much more experience than I, and with many Porsche's in their collection, seem to have a soft spot for the balance and feel of the CS and indeed, road manners are impeccable. Does the lower weight account for this ? Or, is it the lack of sound deadening that takes you one step closer to the road ?
Whatever your choice of Porsche, special models like this will always appeal to certain drivers, hence the value people place upon them.
Vive la Difference !
Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members
Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions
