Clutch Judder when cold

[Jonathan G]

Hi all, I have a 2002 Boxster S with 60,000 miles on the clock. I have noticed in recent weeks that I am getting clutch judder when I pull away at low revs and when the engine is cold. After around 10 miles and when fully warmed up this seems to disappear. Any ideas? Could it be engine mounts, or even early signs of clutch replacement required (I would be surprised after 60000 miles). The car did not do this a couple of months back that I was aware of.

I am going to book it in with Guildford OPC in late March for a major service as they are giving discounted prices. Thanks for any advice as I am concerned this could be a big bill looming.

 

[Motorhead]

Maybe there's light oil contamination of the plates which is getting burnt off after 10 miles of use Jonathan.

If you're on the original clutch after 60,000 miles I would have thought that a replacement is about due anyway. If there is an oil leak, the source can be investigated at the same time.

Jeff

 

[spyderman]

I can quite believe the clutch is going at 60k.

 

[Jonathan G]

Thanks for the replies. The clutch is not slipping at all if I accelerate hard in 2nd from low revs or 5th from low revs. But maybe clutches do not always slip when they are wearing out. If it was wearing out would it not do this all the time rather than only when cold?

Interestingly the juddering is not there when I come back to drive the car 8 or 10 hours later. Only seems to happen when the car is left for at least a day. The oil contamination seems to make sense to me but I'm no expert, which is why I asked []

 

[Motorhead]

Clutch wear is very much dependent upon how and where you drive Jonathan and I would have thought that 60-70k miles is about what you'd expect for relatively light general use. Are there signs of oil seepage in the engine/bellhousing interface area indicating either an engine or gearbox oil seal leak.

Unfortunately, the only way to check what's happening is to remove the gearbox for inspection of the clutch and oil seals, at which time it's a no-brainer to replace the clutch components, etc. at the same time. The PC will be able to advise you when the car's in for its March service, if you're happy to leave it until then.

Jeff

 

[Jonathan G]

Many thanks Jeff. I will try and check for any visible oil leaks this afternoon, when I checked a few months back there were no signs.

Anyone know how much a clutch change (and maybe RMS at same time) would be at an OPC or good independant?

Thanks again, your advice is truly helpful for me to get my head around the issue.

 

[Motorhead]

Unfortunately I'm not in your region Jonathan but I believe that GT-One in Chertsey come recommended by others here ( http://www.gt-one.co.uk/ ). It might be worth speaking to them, as well as Guilford PC, to get a price for the work.

Hope that you get it sorted.

Jeff

 

[Jonathan G]

Thanks again Jeff. Drove the car again this afternoon after 24 hours of standing, some clutch judder when cold but then disappeared after around 10 mins of driving. Only noticeable when you take off slowly using low revs. I only cov er around 3000 miles poer year so it could stey like this a long time before it gets to the point it must be sorted. There were no visible signs of oil leaks or weeping externally.

A friend of mine uses GT-One in Chertsey for servicing and thinks they are excellent. Will give them a try, plus Guildford OPC for pricing. I bought the car from Cridfords in Ripley (Surrey) and they have a good mechanic (Geoff) also so will see if this is a job they can quote for. The car has only done 3000 miles since I bought it from them.

 

[uknick]

Don't forget West Byfleet Porsche Service Centre, next to Brooklands race circuit.

They gave a good price for my major service a few months ago.

 

[John H]

My Cayman has done this almost from new, and continues to do it at 50,000 miles. Exactly as you describe, it judders badly when stone cold, but give it 10 miles and its as sweet as a nut.

The only difference is that my clutch has been out of the car twice in its life (to deal with other warranty issues) and twice it has been minutely examined by Porsche Edinburgh, and no one can find anything whatever wrong with it. It's not worn (it went back in again) it's not oil contaminated, the flywheel is OK ... absolutely nothing could be found, but it still judders. Moreover I have a friend with a Boxster whose clutch does much the same, so I am not overly surprised to hear of this case either.

I suspect there must be some sort of latent design fault which only shows up on certain cars. It feels to me like there are some sort of cush rubbers which lose their elasticity when cold, but return to normal behaviour when warm. Sadly I have never been around when the clucth was out of the car, so I'm not sure.

I've had the car from new, and at 50,000 miles the clutch plate was only very little worn (albeit I am a symathetic driver) so there is no reason to suspect the clutch is worn, unless it's been abused.

 

[Philip Basil]

I have had precisely the same problem with my BMW 1 series from new. 70k miles later it's still doing it. When I asked my BMW main agent about it they said it was related to the dual mass flywheel. They implied it was inherent in the design and apparently some cars judder when cold and others don't. I used to worry about it but have come to accept it's just a trait of an otherwise very good car. I wouldn't rush out and rep,ace the clutch because of it.

 

[Jonathan G]

Thanks John, that's very interesting feedback. I think it is no coincidence this has appeared since the weather got cold, so your theory about rubber mounts could make sense. This is the second winter I have owned the car but I think last winter I generally used more revs to pull away as I had only just bought the car and was more cautious not to stall. It is very much pulling away carefully at low revs that causes this to show up. If I pull away more aggressively with higher revs there is no judder, even when cold.

The car has been very well looked after by two previous owners and the first did quite a few motorway miles and clocked 30000 miles in the first 3 years. I don't think the clutch is worn out after 60000 miles and certainly does not slip no matter how hard I try.

I'm not going to worry about this too much, it will be interesting to see if it persists when the weather warms up, eventually! It's reassuring to know there are others out there with this and no signs of clutch failure or excessive wear.

 

[Motorhead]

Jonathan,

It's sounds as though you, John and his friend as well as Philip on his BMW are all experiencing the same or a similar problem.

Certainly it could be related to the DMF since the two circumferential springs in this assembly perform the cushioning function in the clutch take-up, but I can't imagine how that could be temperature sensitive. The two gearbox mounts I think are hydromounts (fluid-filled to damp motion) on your car, so there could be some temperature-dependency there. It might be worth checking them for evidence of fluid leakage.

Clutching at straws really (excuse the pun!).

Jeff

 

[Buddy]

As Philip said I would suspect the indication you describe to be more from the flywheel, some will do it and others not but I have noticed that if I use my Cayman daily it warms up quicker than if it stands for a few days which would rather indicate that it takes a long time to fully cool down.

I would say that all rotating or operating parts such as the Dual Mass Flywheel, clutch plate rubber bushings and the engine mounts will all be effected by the warm up period but the the engine mounts will cool quicker so that in 8-10 hours even the engine bay will be cold but the other parts being encased by the casings will take longer to cool from a higher operating temp.

If hydraulic engine mounts fail they will make a knocking sound at tickover in the normal course of events plus strange knocks etc during gear changes.

Not a lot of help but in my view it really should not prove to be anything of concern.