Considering a Cayman - Mk II Cayman R vs MK III GTS...?

GrahamGTS · Aug 14, 2015

Hi Just read your report on the Gts Cayman. I have one fully spec d its my fith Cayman absolutely delighted with it best cayman yet, do your Silverstone trip test drive don't feel you will be disappointed, I got mine at Porsche Ferndown new, great service, best of luck enjoy Graham GTS

Masher · Aug 14, 2015

I have a passion for my 964 and own a 944 turbo as a dedicated track car. I'm thinking of a change. The 964 stays but the 944 could go and it is a Cayman I'm considering in it's place. Question is, which one?
Must have are reliability, air con, manual, excellent manners (predictable), good feedback regarding what the suspension is doing and where I am regarding the cars limits. I'd like a decent stereo and bucket seats but I recognise I may have to compromise somewhere.
I will do several track days each year and intend driving to and from them. In addition I'd like the 944 replacement to take on some 'everyday' duties and serve as a car to go to Le Mans, Spa, camping at Silverstone and Goodwood (hence the aircon and stereo thoughts).
I have narrowed down my considerations to a Cayman R or a current GTS model. I've booked a Silverstone experience in the GTS to give me a feel for it and make sure I don't invest my cash unwisely in the wrong vehicle.
Now, why am I putting this on the forum?
I have absolutely adored the Cayman since it first came out and about 4 years ago I considered selling the 964 to buy a Mk1 3,4S which was at a local garage. I took a test drive expecting to fall in love but didn't. I found that particular car (which needed a new clutch) to be slower than I expected but worst of all it was lifeless. Little feedback from the road (driver isolation) and a driving sensation that was no more exciting than the 320D BMW I drive every day. It was not a good example and I have clearly not gone off Caymans as a result. In fact, I find Caymans get more beautiful with each incarnation. To cut to the chase, I will get to drive a GTS at Silverstone and will judge for myself how it feels but I'd welcome opinions from those that have driven both MKII (987)and MKIII (981) Caymans regarding which version provides the driver with greater feedback. If anyone has 964 and Cayman experience all the better.
I understand there is no substitute for getting out and driving them and I'm starting to do that but a few opinions is always fun too!
Purchase timeline... probably over winter or into next spring.
Looking forward to some insights,
Mick

John H · Aug 14, 2015

I am a big fan of my original simple Mk1 Cayman, bought new in 2006 and still in my garage. I have lost track of how many newer, faster, better Cayman(s) I have tried, but I keep coming back to my original car, for its sense of driving purity and feedback, even though it is not the fastest thing on the road. I have also owned a 968 (which I loved) and a 964 (which I never really gelled with) and have written about all of them over the years. I hasten to add I have zero interest in track days, so my opinions are heavily based on road use, but I offer the following pieces which might brighten up a rainy afternoon. Other opinions are of course available! [

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[link=http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/NewCayman/index.htm]http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/NewCayman/index.htm[/link]

[link=http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/GTS/index.htm]http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/GTS/index.htm[/link]

[link=http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/Cayman/index.htm]http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/Cayman/index.htm[/link]

[link=http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/964/index.htm]http://www.arthurlea.com/Stories/964/index.htm[/link]

John H

John H · Aug 14, 2015

Oh, and for what it's worth, I reckon the car for you is a 987 Cayman R. Just don't get a PDK one!

Buddy · Aug 14, 2015

I've driven each incarnation of the Cayman S and also the Cayman 981 2.7 and have personally owned both a 987 Gen1 and Gen2 S the first with manual and the latter has PDK, both cars have Chrono and in the case of the PDK it does increase the performance in several ways when sport is engaged, both in engine response and gearshift, with PASM on etc it's close to a Cayman R apart from the weight savings in the R. A Cayman S with PDK and PASM against a Cayman R Manual would be an interesting back to back test one with a fast gear change and the other with less weight, hard to say which would be a quicker drive but no question which would be more comfortable for long distance.

Air con is standard in all Caymans except the R and maybe the GTS so be aware of the spec of any car you try, PDK gives a much quicker gear change but if you like manuals then the 981 manual gear change is even better than that in the 987 which is darned good. Personally I like the PDK, it is an easy drive in traffic if you choose to drive in auto but switch to manual and engage sport or sport+ and it's a different animal, it's also available in the R and the GTS. The 981 when in sport does have throttle blip on downshift whereas the 987 does not. Both are excellent drives,

Motorhead · Aug 15, 2015

Mick,

I think that you must have just been unlucky with the Gen1 Cayman S you drove - a poor example maybe - and the Gen2 should feel a little bit more lively with the greater power and torque of the DFI engine. As Kevan says, Sport Chrono livens things up a bit more with its more aggressive throttle mapping and engine retune, although probably it suits the PDK 'box option better than the manual.

Personally, I'd save some money and buy a well-spec'd Cayman S rather than the R, and there's a good choice of cars around. Mine's a manual and has 19" wheels, PASM, LSD, Sport Chrono and the sport seats, among other things, and is a great road and track car if that's what you're looking for. I've driven an R and apart from its rarity value, higher intial cost and residual value, I wouldn't say that there's a significant difference between an S and an R for an average driver if you have the bigger wheels and PASM. If you're so inclined, with the money you save you could always revamp the suspension set-up with coil-overs and recalibrated ARBs and get a set of track wheels and tyres or even fit the R springs, dampers, ARBs and wheels. The power difference between the S and R is so small as to make no difference.

I've only driven a 2.7-litre 981 Boxster with PDK - a bit gutless and I got fed up with the PDK after and hour's drive, but then I'm still firmly in the manual camp for a fun car - so can't really comment on how a 981 Cayman GTS would compare with my 987 S. I think that you need to have extended drives in both cars to decide what's best for you.

Gook luck..!

Jeff

MrDemon · Aug 15, 2015

I ran a mint gen 1 for 2 years and have run my R for 2.5 years, I waited for the 981 range but they are not for me.

The R has been and still is a better drivers car, amazing thing with a few geo and brake tweeks.

If you want PDK and a bigger feeling car the 981 is far better esp the PDK, cannot see 987.2 PDK car being high on peoples lists now, 981 PDK is a much better system.

if you want manual, real shocks, a real diff and real steering the R is the car to own.

Buddy · Aug 18, 2015

The Gen2 is to my mind the better sized car for driving anywhere, an S with PASM, Chrono etc whether manual or PDK is a good choice but choice of PDK or manual is individual, PDK is far quicker through the gears, engine braking on the PDK is not so evident as in the Gen1 manual I had previously but is still effective to a greater degree than in an old fashioned automatic. 981 PDK does have enhancements with the throttle blip etc but around 80% of buyers chose the PDK from when it came out as it was such an advance over the Tiptronic and has advantages against the manual, I do find that the 7th gear is too high to use in most traffic conditions as it is around 36MPH/1000RPM and so if rolling along on the motorway you will need to drop two gears before accelerating the ratio is the same or close on the 981S too.

As for comparison against the 964, difficult as they are so different and I haven't driven a 964, however I've driven several 3.2 Carreras, a 993 and a 996 C4, any of the Cayman 3.4's are better handling with better feedback and performance, at speeds over 120mph they just settle better to the ground rather than going light as could the 3.2 Carrera, the 993 I drove was a Cabriolet which I could feel flexing so not a good example and the 996 C4S is again quite different to any C2. From your statement of the poor drive in the Gen1 you tried I would expect that the shocks were worn out and probably the alignment was not exactly optimised. Better luck with a newer version. I must say that since changing from a Gen1 S which had been aligned by Centre Gravity to a Gen2 S with PDK, PASM etc the later Cayman is a better drive for many reasons but your choice is between two very improved versions, try both for as extended a test drive as you can get.

CLIFFWILKINS · Aug 18, 2015

Cayman R if you can.

Try to get Manuel box bucket seats lightweight spyder wheels PSE this will be the most desired spec in the future if it has a few more options all good.

Prices for low mileage, spec as above good examples are on the rise all the time looks a good investment .

Cliff.

Brian_Innes · Aug 19, 2015

Listen to this.........I am on my third 987 Cayman. It's an R manual, short shifter, sports exhaust, carbon buckets, Sports Chrono Plus, shod with Michelin PS Super Sports, wheel spacers, and the geo settings set to my preferences. This CR replaced my 987.2 Cayman S manual with LSD, sports exhaust, 19" wheels, PASM. I have done many track days with both models, and with the CR I have also competed in several motor sport sprints and hill climbs.

From my experience, the Cayman R manual is in a completely different league to the Cayman S. The steering precision, handling balance, road feel, and driving enjoyment is a class apart from all other Cayman 987 including the S.

If you want a Cayman to enjoy on the track and be driven as it was designed to be, buy a Cayman R manual no question. Forget the PDK versions. they are slower, heavier and change gear ratios when you don't need it or want it. As for launch control......a complete waste of time. My launch control is my motor sport experience, brain engagement, and right foot. Guaranteed to beat launch control any day of the week.

Buy a manual 987.2 Cayman R manual owned and cared for by a driver who knows how to improve it.

Brian

Masher · Aug 21, 2015

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. The engine problems affecting 996 and 997 Porsches are well documented but i must confess to having my eye off the ball with respect to Caymans. Whatever i buy i will have assessed professionally before purchase but what are the things i ought to be thinking about with respect to issues?

Thanks

Mick

Motorhead · Aug 21, 2015

A professional assessment with a full diagnostic check prior to purchase is always money well spent Mick and should pick up any problems, both mechanical and electronic.

The DFI engines have overcome the design faults of the earlier engines and there don't appear to be any fundamental problems. Rusting brake discs on the inner sides can occur and coolant pipe leaks and coolant and evaporator radiator damage/leaks can happen. Air-oil separator failures aren't unknown [lots of smoke on start-up]. Owners have complained about corroded exhaust system clamps and exhaust manifold-to-cylinder head bolts. Water pump failures have also been reported as have worn strut top and suspension arm bushes, leading to knocks. Unusually, there have been a few reports of battery explosions with Porsche's dreaded OE Moll battery.

Really, nothing out of the ordinary that you wouldn't expect from a used car and a reputable Porsche Indy should be able to do a competent PPI. The only problems I've experienced with my 987.2 CS have been electrical: a failed PASM due to a pinched cable during vehicle assembly and an alarm module fault.

Remember also that like the 986/996-series cars, there's a huge amount of system and component compatibility between the 987 and 997-series cars - engines, front structure including the front suspension and steering, electronic modules, doors, etc. - which all helped spread development costs and means that the 987 benefited significantly from the 997's development programme.

If you've not read it, you may want to take a look at this 987 Cayman buyers' guide:

[link=http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=231&t=1531556&mid=0&nmt=PistonHead%27s+Buying+Guide%3A+Porsche+Cayman+987]http://www.pistonheads.co...%3A+Porsche+Cayman+987[/link]

Jeff

Masher · Aug 23, 2015

Many thanks. Interesting read though clearly there is some debate still over bearing and seal leaks. Sounds like 987.2 (gen 2 cars) have largely (completely?) overcome the issues. Interesting regarding the oil starvation of the head under hard track work. Can anyone confirm if the 987.2 Cayman R or the 981 GTS suffer from this at all?

On a separate issue, I have seen some cars for sale with ceramic brakes. The replacement cost of these looks completely prohibitive and is putting me off considering these cars. Am I right to be so wary of them?

thanks for the support,

Mick

ralphmusic · Aug 23, 2015

Re oil starvation, I saw this in an Edmonds report about Porsche's development testing regime for DFI engines.

[link=https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=fv53RbvgfGc]https://m.youtube.com/wat...u.be&v=fv53RbvgfGc[/link]

GrahamGTS · Aug 23, 2015

As it was put to me by a Porsche dealer when I ordered my First Porsche Cayman S ?do you think Porsche make a fast car capable of speeds in excess off 155 mph and put rubbish brakes on it ? (NO) so unless you are racing or track days ceramic brakes are not necessary in my view hopes this helps. I now have a Cayman GTS brilliant.

Motorhead · Aug 23, 2015

Mick,

Only the Germans - and perhaps the Japanese - would think of building a rig like that shown in Ralph's video..!

The Gen2 engines have four oil scavenge pumps and pick-ups in the head [compared with the Gen1's two] aimed at overcoming the alleged problems of oil starvation during hard track use.

I've no experience with the PCCBs but as you've said, replacement costs for new discs are very high even though they last significantly longer than their steel counterparts. One advantage though is that brake dust is minimised, so your wheels remain nice and clean. The steel discs are fine for fast road use and for track days and there are plenty of after-market pads and discs available to suit.

No machine is going to be absolutely bullet-proof, and the Cayman's no exception. However, it's been well developed and is a great driver's car. There's a good choice of cars out there so I hope you find what you're looking for.

Jeff

Buddy · Aug 23, 2015

I appreciate the extent of the oil system test especially given the earlier problems attributed to the flat 6 configuration, English Technical Support Engineers would more than likely want such a test rig but the accountants would object to the cost etc, one of the reasons the british motor industry declined decades ago.

As Jeff says the PCCB's don't wear so quickly and so it's a case of cost over distance covered but when they come due, it's going to cost much more!

While some here think they're quicker than PDK it's as much a matter of preference as speed, it does add weight to the car but not that much as to effect the balance etc and you decide when it changes gear provided you move the stick to the left to put it in manual mode although when slowing it will change down if there is a danger of engine stall. It's down to your own choice which model and options you accept a car with but whatever you choose then you are going to be driving one of the best range of driver's cars available.

ChrisW · Aug 23, 2015

Maybe you will be interested to read that I have just replaced all four of the PCCB's on my Cayman R with SICOM refurbished discs for less than £4000 including new pads all round.

I fully appreciate that the perception of braking performance depends upon usage and expectation, but the steel CR brakes are dangerously close to being "not up to the job" for fast track usage.

Hence the GT4 brakes are now the same as those on the 991 GT3RS --- both steel and PCCB. Maybe now a little over-braked