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Corrosion weak spots...

AlexG

PCGB Member
Member
I am seriously considering buying an early 924 (2.0) - based on the fact that they are cheap, many parts are relatively cheap (so running costs shoud be comparatively cheap - are you noticing a theme here) and whilst performance is not breathtaking the handling should provide entertainment on the tight and twisty stuff...and if all goes according to plan the goal will be to enter some hillclimbs/sprints with it next season (but without going mad with modifications).

So, before I go and look at any properly are there any particular areas prone to corrosion I should concentrate on? From my searches so far it seems that under the battery is one place to look, how bad can it get under here? And the sills appear to be an issue, but is there any way to ascertain the condition of the inner sills if the outer structure appears sound?

Any other model specific gotchas?

Thanks in advance [:)]
 
It can get very bad under there. I have seen photos somewhere of gaping one inch rust holes in the battery tray. Under the point where the front arms of the workshop lift locate can get weak, and the slightest collapse of the floor there leads to a sticking throttle pedal, until the floor is given a hefty wack back the other way.
 
All the chassis are essentially the same right through so you really have to get the car on a ramp to check underneath, sills are a main issue as it can fail MOT there easily, battery tray been mentioned. I can't think how you'd check the inner sills but if the outer ones have been done there's no reason why they wouldnt be OK? Less of a major issue is bubbling at front of rear wings. Personally for the price they are going for now, I'd go for an S, that engine is ace ;)


 
ORIGINAL: Alan Woods

All the chassis are essentially the same right through so you really have to get the car on a ramp to check underneath, sills are a main issue as it can fail MOT there easily, battery tray been mentioned. I can't think how you'd check the inner sills but if the outer ones have been done there's no reason why they wouldnt be OK? Less of a major issue is bubbling at front of rear wings. Personally for the price they are going for now, I'd go for an S, that engine is ace ;)

While I agree that the 'S' is far and away the better car Alex is looking for cheap maintanence and anyone buying an 'S' MUST look to replacing the Timing and balance shaft belts and tensioners and would be advised to change the water pump unless it can be proved to have been done recently. That adds the best part of £500 imeadiately as it is not a DIY job because of the skill and special equipment needed.

On the 2 litre cars timing belt relacement is simple and nowhere as esential as in the 2.5 litre engine because a broken cambelt on a 2 litre car usuall means that the eninge stops whereas on the 2.5 (944) lump it almost always means a new engine.

I have owned all models exept the Carrera GT and as a sole Porsche the 924S is my favourite for general use whereas the Turbo is the fun car. Our 2 litre N/A was basic family transport for many years.
 
you should be able to check the rear section of the inner sills by removing the black plastic vent in the door post and having a good look in there with a torch
 
ORIGINAL: geoff ives

....... That adds the best part of £500 imeadiately as it is not a DIY job because of the skill and special equipment needed.
This depends entirely on your level of skill. If you have ever replaced the belts on a 944 then it becomes apparent that it is just more of the same. All the corresponding 944 belts are the same length when new, so one has to conclude that the outgoing belts were properly tensioned. If the tensioners are marked prior to dissassembly then a very close approximation to the correct tension can be achieved, even when fitting new tensioners. Every timing pulley is marked, and Porsche have thoughtfully put index marks on the rear half of the timing belt cover with which to align them. If you line everything up, and mark it with my favourite tippex before you rip it all out in a oilfired, blinding hurry it is no big deal. I am sure that any service centre would be willing to relieve you of the requisite amount of sterling to perform a belt tension test if you wheeled it in and asked them to check it out due a strange noise coming from that area. You may even be able to hire a tension setting tool. Does anyone know if such a thing is avialable to members via the club?
 
John
That is one hell of an assumption.
It assumes that after 20 years that the car still has original Porsche pullies and tensioners. It also assumes that it has always had genuine belts.

By the way the tension setting tool has to be reset after a period of use.

I wouldn't (didn't) take that chance and would seriously advise others not to.
 
I am sure that a 2.5 is a better option and was my preferred option until I started doing the maths on insurance, tyres, brakes etc. - I simply don't have the budget this year or the patience to wait another year! Also if I am going to have a go at hillclimbs & sprints I want every possible excuse available for coming last [;)]

Thanks for the extra hints on what to look for.

Re the belts on the 2.5 lump, if I were in the situation I'd do the job myself and use the money saved to buy the special tools...

 
Me too,but you don't need any special tool;just adjust the tension slowly until you can just twist the belt mid span on it's slack side through 90 degrees.Rotate the engine by spanner several times each time checking the tension as above .It's the equivalent of the 1/2" deflection for a V-belt used on dynamo/alternator drives etc.
 
Rust in battery area is common but is so accessible (compared to sills) that fixing it is easy.
924's rust in the area where mud lodges at the base/rear of the front wings. There is a 10mm bolt that goes through the bottom flange of the wing and into a short bracket welded to the corner of the floor/innerwing panels. If you explore this area and there is no rust you are lucky. If you look underneath the car in this area you will see a 2" diameter metal 'doughnut' - I think this may be where the factory located an assembly line lifting jig for the shell alone as there are also two at the rear. They are NOT jacking points and if you have rust in the aforementioned area it may well extend under this 'doughnut' (ask me how I know). If you find no rust here then get a plastic or hard rubber spacer washer about an 1/8th of an inch thick and uncrew the 10mm bolt. Slide spacer in between sill and main body, put copper grease on bolt threads and refit. The gap will mean that when you hose the car down you can flush out the mud and grit from this area.

Look very carefully at the semi-enclosed box section, underneath the car, where you have spanner access to the large nut that holds the rear torsion tube outer support. This is about 12 to 14" forward from the back end of the outer sill. If you find big flakes of rust coming off the sheet metal or indeed signs of freshly applied underseal then suspect it is going thin in this area. Repairs are time consuming (£££'s) because of access. It may also be a sign that the inner sill in general is suffering.

Cambelts on the 924S and 944 intrigue me. Just what did Porsche get so wrong in the layout and design of cam and balancer belts that their life expectancy is so short (the Americans having persuaded many people that 30,000 is the limit) ?
The first set of belts and pulleys on my (FSH) '86 924S were changed at 75,000 miles. Another 924S with FSH was on eBay recently with " .... all belts changed at 76,000".
A much thrashed rep's car (an OHC Cavalier) that I bought some years ago still had its original belt functioning at 120,000. I checked through the very full history of this one-company-owner car and due to a 'cock up' it had NEVER had the belt changed.
I have a 1.8T 20 valve DOHC turbo Passat (150 bhp) that had its first tensioner and belt change at 80,000 miles.
A previous generation 2 litre OHC Passat that I bought for my wife had its first cambelt changed at 82,000 miles.

So ..... just what is technically wrong with the Porsche set up that has led to such a staggeringly low figure of just 30K? I do, by the way, understand that there was an early and rectified issue with a projection on the cover that allowed a belt to rub.

Based on the two examples of 924S's doing circa 75K from new - is it fair to conclude that if fitted and retensioned as per Porsche requirements, then they are totally fit to do a 'normal' 75K - and that it is later owners skimping on proper servicing that may have led to failures ?

One 'expert' on Rennlist suggested that "antifreeze leaks will rot the rubber belts".
Again I am puzzled. Given that many, many 924's and 944's are on their first set of rubber radiator hoses at 20 years plus and 120,000 plus miles ..... would the cam and balancer belts really be made of such inferior 'rubber' and Kevlar that antifreeze could affect them ?

As to tensioning devices for DIY (although 90 degrees twisting works perfectly for many, many cars with toothed OHC belts) some Americans use a cheapish tool called a Krikit which you could import. I believe Optibelt in Europe sell a very similar device.

There is also the 920X sold in the USA for about £80.
See http://www.arnnworx.com/new_tensioning_tool.htm

My local motor factor now stocks a very neat cambelt tensioning gauge made by Laser tools and it costs a meagre £39.
Provided that you could initially cross reference its reading with correctly tensioned Porsche belts then it seems to represent a very economical piece of kit when compared to the very expensive Porsche P9201 tensioning gauge ( £300 + ?).
 
Most "life" cycles are based on fatigue life sometimes derived from aircraft practice and if I remember correctly are generally put at 10 times 10*6.
At 30,000miles at average speed of 40mph gives 750hrs running =45,000 minutes at engine speed of say 2500rpm =11.25 times10*6 revolutions.
Each revolution means the belt articulates whatever the sum is of the belt length in teeth pitches divided by the no of teeth on the crankshaft pulley.
Only a certain size can be designed into the engine front so there are obvious limitations as to belt life.Some people are lucky,others with the wrong sort of engine have a disaster,
Then factor in a lumpy 4 cylinder engine,with fairly rapid acceleration,balancer shafts where the belt has to cope with out of balance rotating masses and bingo-limited belt life if reliability is to prevail
 
ORIGINAL: VITESSE

Most "life" cycles are based on fatigue life sometimes derived from aircraft practice and if I remember correctly are generally put at 10 times 10*6.
At 30,000miles at average speed of 40mph gives 750hrs running =45,000 minutes at engine speed of say 2500rpm =11.25 times10*6 revolutions.
Each revolution means the belt articulates whatever the sum is of the belt length in teeth pitches divided by the no of teeth on the crankshaft pulley.
Nice - but not quite correct for a flexible belt made of polyesters.
The fatigue life cycles you mention are based around crack propogation in metals. The atoms are encoraged to move by the flexing and they move until there is a hole - this increases the local microsocopic stress so the crack at some point self-propogates and then you wing falls off. Search for K1C values for more techie jargon

Polyester belting has neither the same crytsaline structure of metals nor the same dislocated structure to allow the inital movements.

I am guessing but the different lives of belts are down to relative conservatism of manufacturers and the quality of the belt manufacture. The car manufactures will probably specify the belt change at half of the real life as they do not want class actions.
 
That's the trouble with this forum,you always get picked on your contributions however well meaning they are meant to be[:-].I think in fact the general premise of fatigue failure and its' relationship to no's of cycles applies to all materials inc metals,plastics,timber,textiles and rubber,including combinations of them as composites or arrangements.
With a toothed belt,the flexure of the tensile textile reinforced flat back in both directions over toothed pulleys and flat tension pulleys coupled with the shear force applied to the moulded teeth and a combination of the two between the back & the teeth results ultimately in fatigue failure.Okay,materials have different physical & chemical properties but the general result is the same.A chaindrive would also fail ultimately from fatigue but actual length extension due to wear limits its' life to around 15,000hrs.
Lecture over.[:)]
 
ORIGINAL: VITESSE

That's the trouble with this forum,you always get picked on your contributions however well meaning they are meant to be[:-].

I had noticed that[8|]
 
I think 'picked on' may be rather harsh. Metric raises some interesting points which is exactly what I hoped to read when I wondered out loud if there were real, proven, fundamental design problems as opposed to perhaps a 'relayed fear' (or 'mantra' as one dissenting Rennlister called the short life issue).
I find it hard to believe that there is any major difference in belt composition between the big boys, Continental, Gates, etc. It would surely be commercial suicide to put out belts that were not up to a very similar standard ?

Certainly I can see that the balancer belt has a harder life than the cam belt in that it has to control pulses and is run at twice crank speed.

Just to give another recent example of cambelt longevity. Local garage has just changed first cambelt and tensioner on a friends Zetec DOHC engined Ford Escort (sorry to mention that in more exulted company - but it is a superb engine wasted in a tin box .....) at 101,000 miles.

Is the Mitsubishi (there I go again ...) that also has twin balancer shafts a chain cam engine or rubber belt ? Anyone know ?

"A chaindrive would also fail ultimately from fatigue but actual length extension, due to wear, limits its' life to around 15,000hrs". I think the Frazer Nash boys get through them very much faster than that. Another area of interest of mine as I am assembling a 'kit of parts' for an aero-engined Frazer Nash special.
 
ORIGINAL: muddy

Local garage has just changed first cambelt and tensioner on a friends Zetec DOHC engined Ford Escort (sorry to mention that in more exulted company - but it is a superb engine wasted in a tin box .....) at 101,000 miles.
The Zetec in my Focus still has its original belt at 120,000 miles. I guess I will get it changed soon. But I do not expect it to fail at all. Confirmed by the guys in the workshop.
 
ORIGINAL: VITESSE

That's the trouble with this forum,you always get picked on your contributions however well meaning they are meant to be[:-].I think in fact the general premise of fatigue failure and its' relationship to no's of cycles applies to all materials inc metals,plastics,timber,textiles and rubber,including combinations of them as composites or arrangements.
With a toothed belt,the flexure of the tensile textile reinforced flat back in both directions over toothed pulleys and flat tension pulleys coupled with the shear force applied to the moulded teeth and a combination of the two between the back & the teeth results ultimately in fatigue failure.Okay,materials have different physical & chemical properties but the general result is the same.A chaindrive would also fail ultimately from fatigue but actual length extension due to wear limits its' life to around 15,000hrs.
Lecture over.[:)]
Oh come on!!! I am not picking on you - I providing the correct explanation of fatigue in metals. I will learn from what people will post here - and I hope others will pick up useful information I post. It so happens one of my degrees is to do with materials and their engineering performance. So I reckon I can add something here.

Of course other materials fail in extended life cycles but their failure mode is different from metals, because metals are err, well metals (flow of electricity, sea of electrons and stuff)
I could explain in very fine detail but will leave that until I can stop you from escaping.

 

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