Dampers. And springs? and bars?

Shane Hodges · Jun 23, 2008

It's time for the 24-36 monthly geometry check and, given the positive things I have heard about Center Gravity, am looking to use them. However, given that they will also do corner weighting, they will possibly spend a shed load of time (and hence my cash) taking off dampers and freeing collars etc to adjust. Now 13 years and 62,000 miles means that my shocks have probably seen better days, but I like the ride and don't want things too stiff or fully adjustable for my reasonably fast road driving and 1 track day a year max.

So, any advice on the following would be much appreciated.

1) The dampers might as well be changed and Bilstein HD's seem the recommended way forward - I guess no one has any comments on this suggestion !?!
2) Springs. I have a standard set up and wondered whether to retain the current springs or replace. H&R have been mentioned on numerous occassions in the past. Is it best to replace springs too or will the old ones suffice? ... and what is the latest recommendation to keep things the same rather than stiffening things up?
3) Anti roll bars - I guess I do not need to change these given I am not playing with ride height or looking to change the current handling characteristics? (I understand standard bars aimed for moderate understeer.) Or do I?
4) Springs coming out of collars with Bilsteins when the car is jacked up resulting in MOT failings .... I remember this discussion sometime ago but cannot recall a solution. Was there one?
5) Have anyone used Centre Gravity for suspension work in addition to geometry work? ... or do you all just do it yourselves!?! I am wondereing whether I would be better off going to JZ (who regularly service the car) for the changes to the suspension or whether Centre Gravity has this experience in spades.

Many thanks in advance for any help, suggestions, comments, views etc etc!

M030 · Jun 24, 2008

1) The dampers might as well be changed and Bilstein HD's seem the recommended way forward - I guess no one has any comments on this suggestion !?!

Bilstein HD are the best option as replacement shocks for the original ones. They are a bit firmer in damping but htey will last for years whereas original shocks (Monroe) are known to die after 2-3 years.

2) Springs. I have a standard set up and wondered whether to retain the current springs or replace. H&R have been mentioned on numerous occassions in the past. Is it best to replace springs too or will the old ones suffice? ... and what is the latest recommendation to keep things the same rather than stiffening things up?

Porsche springs keep their spring rates pretty well over the years, so there is no need to replace them.
If you're a sporty driver, you might want to consider to go with the M030 springs.

3) Anti roll bars - I guess I do not need to change these given I am not playing with ride height or looking to change the current handling characteristics? (I understand standard bars aimed for moderate understeer.) Or do I?

Bigger sway bars are good if you're after a sporty setup.
In that case, the first thing is to go with the M030 springs.

4) Springs coming out of collars with Bilsteins when the car is jacked up resulting in MOT failings .... I remember this discussion sometime ago but cannot recall a solution. Was there one?

If you install H&R or Eibach lovering springs on original Porsche shocks, you also have the same problem.
Just tie the top of the spring to the spring top.

5) ... or do you all just do it yourselves!?! .

If you're handy and have the proper tools, there are enough DIY's on the internet.
Most important is to set the height correctly and have a geometry afterwards.

PM me if you need more info.

Shane Hodges · Jun 24, 2008

Many thanks for this comprehensive response. Given that this could be a DIY job (although currently out of my league) I will work on the assumption that Centre Gravity can competently do this work. I might ask for the "extra thread" Bilsteins just in case I go down the route of M033 or M030 at a later stage. I am unsure just how hard the M030 will be and so might avoid this for the time being.

Cheers,

Pickled Piper · Jun 24, 2008

Hi Shane,

You don't need the extra thread Bilstiens if you want to go M030 or M033. Only if you want to go lower.

It's really up to you how far you want to go and how much you want to spend. If you're basically happy with the car then change the dampers and bushes and get the geometry set up properly.

If you are paying to have the suspension taken apart and the geometry set up then it is not a great deal more to replace the springs and /or the anti roll bars.

I'm not helping am I.

Sorry.

pp

clyde · Jun 24, 2008

Shane, how do you manage to get 2 to 3 years between geometry adjustment? I notice mine as being a bit iffy after about 10 or 11 months. It is a daily driver but I only do about 8,000 miles a year.

The other thing you might want to consider doing while you car's in bits is the track rods. Mine were replaced at the last geometry adjustment and it made a huge difference to the cornering.

Shane Hodges · Jun 25, 2008

pp, you are helping, honest! re the extra thread, I understood that if you replace the standard shocks with Bilsteins the car rides 10 - 15 mm higher and hence you need the additional thread simply to get back to the standard ride height. Am I wrong here?

I am still in 2 minds as to whether to go for the M030 set up - my concern is that it will make the ride too hard, although initial views from people is that I won't tell the difference when driving along motorways.

Clyde, the reason I have got away with it for 3 years is that my son was born just over a year ago and, as my wife refuses to travel in the back, I did a mere 1,000 miles last year, most of which was me hoofing it on my own on Sunday mornings to give the car a run! Thanks for the info on track rods.

Shane Hodges · Jun 25, 2008

One more for the mix ... Centre Gravity are recommending an Eibach Pro Spring kit. Are there any views out there on these v Porsche M030 springs?

Cheers,

M030 · Jun 25, 2008

Eibach are one of the softest springs available for the 993 whereas the M030 springs are one of the most sporty springs .
The Eibachs also lower 20-25mm more.

sawood12 · Jun 28, 2008

Shane, I would urge you to look at KW's before making your decision. They are relatively new kids on the block but I have yet to come across a bad report. There is clearly alot of experience of the Biltstien set up on 993's but time and tecnology moves on. I'm just suggesting you consider them before ta king the plunge. I have every confidence that they will be superb on a 993 as they are on 944's and GT3's.

RichardLW · Jun 28, 2008

I would not recommend M030 springs and Bilstein HDs and lowering it as well as it too damn hard - my GT3 is much softer.

Shane Hodges · Jul 1, 2008

Scott, thank you for the comments but I am more a "laggard" than an "early adopter", so being the first person to try them on a 993 is probably not for me. .. unless anyone out there has them on a 993 and can let me know ...

Richard, I was not planning on lowering the car to RS height, but just to the M030 / M033 / TT height. Are you saynig that even at M030 / M033 / TT height, the M030 springs + Bilstein HD's will make the ride uncomfortably hard? Is this what you once had on your 993? This is where I don't want to go as I like the ride as it is - I don't want to be driving on a motorway for 2 hours getting a bump everytime I run over a spider.

Cheers,

johng · Jul 1, 2008

Shane
For what it's worth, Chris at CG set my 993 C4 up this time last year and transformed the "feel" of the car. I would recommend their services and advice any time
JohnG

Shane Hodges · Jul 1, 2008

John, what suspension set up do you have?

sawood12 · Jul 1, 2008

ORIGINAL: Shane Hodges

Scott, thank you for the comments but I am more a "laggard" than an "early adopter", so being the first person to try them on a 993 is probably not for me. .. unless anyone out there has them on a 993 and can let me know ...

Richard, I was not planning on lowering the car to RS height, but just to the M030 / M033 / TT height. Are you saynig that even at M030 / M033 / TT height, the M030 springs + Bilstein HD's will make the ride uncomfortably hard? Is this what you once had on your 993? This is where I don't want to go as I like the ride as it is - I don't want to be driving on a motorway for 2 hours getting a bump everytime I run over a spider.

Cheers,

Shane, maybe have a word with Promax Motorsport as they sell and have experience with both setups and can probably describe a back to back unpredudiced comparison. I don't think there is much in it in terms of cost and even though they are relatively new there has been alot of experience with them, especially on 944's and 996GT3's as well as other car makes and models. Not only are they made from stainless steel, the dampers have a valve inside which varies the damper rate depending upon the type of bump you are riding over - low frequency/amplitude bumps, like road undulations, and the damper stiffens up and higher frequency/amplitude bumps like potholes or trackside kirbing and the damper softens up giving a more compliant ride. A sort of passive PASM if you like.

polar964 · Jul 1, 2008

Shane,
Went to Chris at CofG in April this year. Replaced shocks with Bilsteins and springs with M030, then fully geo and corner balancing. Didn't lower kept factory settings. I would have no problem entrusting Chris with my 964 or any car for that matter. He is a top guy, not happy himself until he has it spot on. If everyone in the motor business was like Chris it would make having things done a lot less trouble!
Check out my thread on the 964 forum under 'Bilsteins now fitted'

RichardLW · Jul 2, 2008

ORIGINAL: Shane Hodges

Scott, thank you for the comments but I am more a "laggard" than an "early adopter", so being the first person to try them on a 993 is probably not for me. .. unless anyone out there has them on a 993 and can let me know ...

Richard, I was not planning on lowering the car to RS height, but just to the M030 / M033 / TT height. Are you saynig that even at M030 / M033 / TT height, the M030 springs + Bilstein HD's will make the ride uncomfortably hard? Is this what you once had on your 993? This is where I don't want to go as I like the ride as it is - I don't want to be driving on a motorway for 2 hours getting a bump everytime I run over a spider.

Cheers,

if you are not planning to go any lower you may get away with it but my inclination - having lived with it for a year - would be to go for a softer spring rather than the standard M030. My car was running at standard M030 height but crashed around over humps and holes and was generally not that nice at times. The whole car would shudder over the worst ones. I did have turbo roll bars front and rear as well which may not have helped but I think the real issue was the springs. As I say my GT3 is softer riding - go figure as they say.

dparslow · Jul 4, 2008

On my previous 993 a C2 with standard ride height, I fitted Bilsteins with Eibach lowering springs set to M030 ride height and the geometry adjusted to RS spec. It worked well for my requirements, a supple ride but still nice and pointy through the twisty bits.

Shane Hodges · Jul 10, 2008

Many thanks all. Having now spoken and exchanged emails with a number of people, in addition to all the postings here, I am reverting back to my original plan - it has been an interesting adventure! One person I have to thank is Gert from Carnewal - always quick to respond and extremely helpful - I just wish I could have bought something from him.

I drive a lot to my parents in the South West where the back roads are uneven and holey - my original concern of a bad back from motorway driving has been replaced by my concern over the hardness of the M030 set up on these roads ... so its stay with my current springs / ride height and just upgrade the dampers. I will be running with the Bilsteins - the others I have looked at have adjustments I am unlikely to ever use or need and hence and will stick with the trusted favourites .... hopefully the same year of manufacture Paul!

Off to Centre Gravity on Saturday ... I'll post my thoughts when I get the car back the following weekend. I concur with the comments already posted here re Chris - I must have already spent over an hour on the phone with him and the team.

38F3E1 · Jul 10, 2008

Which Bilsteins are you fitting?

Ian.

Shane Hodges · Jul 14, 2008

They are the HD's Ian, but without the extra thread. I find it extremely unlikely I will ever drop the car to RS height and so am not ordering the one's with extra thread from Gert.

Dropped the car off with Chris Franklin on Saturday morning. I spent one and a half hours with him (and Jane), just chatting about what he will do, looking at the new dampers, looking at knackered dampers, and better understanding (via a clever toy car) how corner weighting can make such a difference to handing.

I am really looking forward to getting the car back next Saturday ....