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Driving tips

rooksy

New member
I had heard that the back end likes to go sideways when cornering / going round roundabouts and have had a few little slides before yesterday when it went a fair bit going round a roundabout in the wet. Thankfully [8|] nothing got hit, and would rather not repeat the experience. Apart from steering into the slide, has anyone any tips on keeping the car in control especially in the wet.
 
Best to get your tyres and geometry checked.

The 911 (particularly the 3.2 Carrera) naturally understeers with the steering weight increasing. It has so much traction and rear end adhesion that it actually takes quite a bit of effort to get the rear end to slide, and then you have to be quick on the throttle and steering wheel to balance it.
 
Steering via the throttle is one famous plus of the 911 achieved partly by having weight over the rear axle, hence loads of traction, take the traction away, as in the wet and it's a completely different story, drive carefully bravado in a 911 on a miserable day can end in disaster.
 
I agree with Oliver on the understeer and I suspect you might have induced a tail out by lifting off the throttle whilst cornering.
 
What tyres are you running and what did you do to get into the sliding situation? For example, did you go in too hot and lift or brake into the roundabout or did the rear break free under power coming out of the roundabout?

IMHO 911s have massive wet and dry grip you just have to respect that there is a big old engine lung out behind the rear wheels. Think of the physics. If you lift or brake while turning some weight will transfer to the front axle and, if the rear tyres already have some lateral loading then the rear may start to slide. You still have a big pendulum out the back so once you start to slide you better hang on. Hence you probably want to brake in a straight(ish) line before the corners or roundabouts. Leave the trailbraking for the track where it is very useful in order to get the car to start to rotate. The rear weight bias is also very helpful. Whether its just the suspension geometry or that and the rear engine, the 911 will squat when you accelerate in a nice even, square manner. So when you get on the power, you get loads of squat and weight transfer to the rear wheels and huge amounts of traction. It is very rare to spin the inside rear wheel, even without an LSD. Provided you don't accelerate too early or too hard you can use the squat/rear weight bias to get great traction out of corners and when the 911 does slide under power, it is (normally) a nice progressive slide that you can just accelerate thru. If the slide gets past about 25 degrees to straight ahead it can be tricky to recover as the old pendulum thing comes into play, but provided you don't lift, you continue to get the benefit of the squat/rear weight bias - hence the old adage "don't lift".

So, on the road, try "slow in, fast out". When there is lots of room and clear site of the road ahead, you can experiment a little. In the dry, try gently lifting a little mid corner and feel the nose tuck in, then back on the gas and feel the rear squat and the nose push wide. You should be able to feel this at just medium speeds - no need for warp factor 9. You will not be sliding, just adjusting your line with the throttle. Sliding is similar just to a greater degree and things happen a lot faster.

The best wet track day I did was an airfield day maybe 4 years ago in darkest, coldest, filthiest November - and then a Ferrari laid oil down on the whole track. It was a little like driving on ice but great fun to experiment - opposite lock into corners and opposite lock out of corners. You may find it hard to believe but I was lapping faster than a 996TT driver who had the instructor with him. he was sliding and using the 4wd to pull him out of the slides. It was fascinating to watch as you could see the torque transfer to the front wheels haul the car out of the slide. In my little car you had just the throttle and weight transfer to adjust your line with. Right up until I ran out of lock on power oversteer, I was doing great !! At that point I had to lift and predictably spin and unpredictably become beached on some tyres!

RB
 
Rooksy why don't you go to a track day with Richard or one of the other regulars on a wet day and learn how to control your car in the wet there, the road is not the place to do it or take it to a skid-pan, as you know the road is a far more unpredictable place than a track generally is. I don't wish to spoil your fun but the other humans around you are fragile too, think about it, IMHO it's far easier to lose a 911 in the wet than it is in the dry, I'm talking about older cars here not GT3s etc. which are superb in comparison, take it easy.
 
The roundabouts that I have had the 'experience' with can be taken at around 30 / 35 mph in a family car no problem, which I was doing a similar speed at the weekend in the 911 when the rear slid. I'm probably guilty of taking my foot off the throttle on entry as I let the engine do the braking alot of the time. I think I may have come across as a bit of a road hog, but I don't treat the road as a racetrack, and have not tried to slide to rear on purpose. I generally have a much more precious passenger my 4 year old daughter so I do take it easy.

I will also review the tyres I currently have, only had the car around 8 mths, and before I bought it I had it checked out by OPC Glasgow who highlighted that the front and rear tyres were of a different rating. Does this sounds as though it could be part of the problem?

The track days you mention are these the days in Porsche Post? I've never been to one, but think they sound it would be of great benefit to me (especially after the advice given here), but have been slightly put off at the thought of getting in the way of seasoned track day drivers. What experience / opinions have you on them?
 
I would go for the trackdays for fun, but probably some more specialised training if you want to concentrate on at the limit car control

Track days are great, especially the PCGB ones (IMHO) as everyone seems quite laid back and there are no "nutters" thinking it is a race, plus they don't cram the maximum number of cars onto the track, so everyone gets enough space around them
 
Sorry I assumed you were going faster, maybe you were unlucky with diesel on the road and that's the problem with the wet roads, ever changing conditions. Also if you have very wide tyres at the rear with less than optimum tread depth, or a bad combination that can increase the problem. I once mixed makes of tyres front and rear and the car didn't feel 'right'. Porsche trackdays are excellent , you'll make friends there, I haven't been to many in recent years and then only as a specy but the cars are all Porsches and all levels of driving ability are respected plus you can get the more experienced guys to hop in and give you some pointers. If you have suspect tyres , you'll pick up information to arrive at the best choice.
 
ORIGINAL: rooksy

The roundabouts that I have had the 'experience' with can be taken at around 30 / 35 mph in a family car no problem, which I was doing a similar speed at the weekend in the 911 when the rear slid. I'm probably guilty of taking my foot off the throttle on entry as I let the engine do the braking alot of the time. I think I may have come across as a bit of a road hog, but I don't treat the road as a racetrack, and have not tried to slide to rear on purpose. I generally have a much more precious passenger my 4 year old daughter so I do take it easy.

I will also review the tyres I currently have, only had the car around 8 mths, and before I bought it I had it checked out by OPC Glasgow who highlighted that the front and rear tyres were of a different rating. Does this sounds as though it could be part of the problem?

The track days you mention are these the days in Porsche Post? I've never been to one, but think they sound it would be of great benefit to me (especially after the advice given here), but have been slightly put off at the thought of getting in the way of seasoned track day drivers. What experience / opinions have you on them?

Don't worry, I didn't assume anything bad [:)]

In fact, I assumed you were having a quiet play on a clear piece of road. Go for it, I say.

I am still curious as to what tyres you have and also how much tread they have and perhaps how old they are (even if they have adequate tread). The different ratings may or may not be relevant - I tend to think not.

I would love to do track days with more 3.2 drivers though I am a little restricted both with family commitments and with noise restrictions. I have 2 lovely stainless downturns from H&S to bolt on my tailpipes which will help but may not be enough on Bedford, Castle Combe etc. I am a definite for Spa in May though...

RB
 
I had miss-matched tyres front vs rear, and the tail was very loose in the wet. I now have matching uniroyals all round, and the grip is fantastic, even in the wet.
 
There is about 4 to 5mm of tread on each tyre. The front are Continental Contisport Contact 205/55R 16 91W and the rear are Sava Rapidex R2 225/50R 16 92V.

I've found a web site that seems to have a lot of information on tyres www.tyres-online.co.uk Sava are apparently a budget 'Goodyear' make, perhaps not the best!! Uniroyal get a mention from DBA which are a brand of Continental - any other recommendations
 
Change the rear tyres!!

If you have good quality rubber at all four corners then in my experience a 911 will, for a given speed and sensible use of the right pedal be no more likely to slide in the wet than any typical modern saloon. However, the weight distribution/dynamics of a 911 mean that the change in grip levels and handling from dry to wet conditions will be far more marked than with most other vehicles and this fact must be respected. I bought my 3.2 over seven years ago as a hobby vehicle but deliberately clocked up over 9,000 miles in the first year on mixed roads and in varying conditions just to "learn" how to drive the car confidently (this included taking the car to a very large empty supermarket car-park in wet weather and having a play! - A little bit naughty but quite safe and very worthwhile!).

I took my car to a track-day for the first time earlier this month. I chose Bedford Autodrome because of the large run-off areas. The event was organised by RMA Circuit Club (see web). I was a little bit nervous at first when I realised that my car was one of the slower vehicles attending but I had plenty of space, everybody was incredibly friendly and understanding of my novice status. Track manners of all drivers were impeccable. I think it is worth paying a little bit extra for a well organised event with an established outfit attracting the right sort of customers (i.e. not full of loonies thrashing cheap bangers quite capable of taking you with them for an excursion into the armco as they try to impress their mates! - Castle Coombe Classic & Sportscar Action Day being a good example of such madness)

 
ORIGINAL: rooksy



The track days you mention are these the days in Porsche Post? I've never been to one, but think they sound it would be of great benefit to me (especially after the advice given here), but have been slightly put off at the thought of getting in the way of seasoned track day drivers. What experience / opinions have you on them?


I am organising a DDK classic porsche trackday / learn to handle your car event @ Elvington on the 20th Nov. I *might* have a space free, but won't know for sure until we are into November.

We are setting out a 'handling' area where you can learn how to handle the car on teh limit & what happens if you get it wrong. In addition we will be running the track, where most people are beginners
 
I am not, nor ever have been a racing driver, but I found my 3.2 an absolute peach on road or track in any condition. I had Contisports all round and always had full confidence. Maybe it comes from being a motorcyclist first but 'slow in-fast out' driving came naturally to me. I never had any 'moments' in the wet with my car and only managed to provoke a spin on a dry track carrying WAY too much speed into a corner and committing the cardinal sin of lifting on the apex. A beautiful 720 resulted with only my pride damaged. But be sure, when the rear breaks away, it is cobra-fast. If you not ready for it, you'll never catch it! As every one else says, get your tyres sorted!
 

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