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Dual Port Waste-gates

gajh

New member
Can the inlet and outlet ports be swapped when bolting onto the exhaust and crossover pipe as I have read that this is possible, however you need to make sure that the vacuum and boost hoses are correct as it is the vacuum that causes the valve to open to release the pressure. The reason I ask is that I have a tial 38mm and the exhaust is connected to the bottom port and the crossover to the side port. Thanks
 
With a Tial you will have to install it the other way around - bottom port (where you can push the valve) on cross pipe and side port on exhaust. The control line goes to the side port.
 
Yes, as the valve slides inside the wastegate, not outside like is the case on the standard one.
 
Why would anyone fit a tial, my experience is they work - just like an OEM waste gate.

Given the option I prefer the fit of the OEM

George
944t
 
Sorry you are wrong there George, they are dual port and only open when set to do so and are way better engineered that an OEM one.
 
Iv got tial 38mm and it would seem there is only one way they fit. Head up. But iv heard they creep boost like this. Due to working the other way to stock. There for LR is better? Jon offers a 9xx club man, if this position was an issue I don't think he would bother.

Tial will work but apparently not as well if the piping was routed differently ? But can it fit on its side? That's how it would be fitted correctly right?
 
Sorry Frenchy, I should have made it clear that my comment was related to a DPW OE and DPW Tial both with Norgren (as per Promax/Lindsay) manual boost control.

Both of them manage a 1.2 bar limit on a 2.5L car.
 
I am not surprised that some people might think the TiAL or any Dual Port wastegate is no better than a standard wastegate, especially if they have read the manual for a TiAL.

In the Tial manuals the diagrams show the wastegate being plumbed up just like a 944 wastegate is as standard, even if you read many of the electronic boost controllers you get the same impression.

However a TiAL comes into its own when you use it as a Dual Port Wastegate, where you use the boost pressure to help keep the wastegate closed, as well as opening it.

With the right spring, and the right manual or electronic boost controller, plumbed up the right way, a dual port wastegate will clamp the valve of the wastegate in a neutral or closed position as soon as you start making any boost, and the higher the boost, the higher the clamping force.. Once the boost pressure on the opening side of the wastegate reaches a higher pressure than the combination of the spring pressure (as well as a factor of exhaust back pressure versus crossover pressure) and the regulated boost on the other side of the diaphragm, the valve will open quite quickly, spooling the turbo down, which therefore makes less boost and causes the valve to be forced closed again.

However if you look at the manuals, they normally show the TiAL in a single port mode, which does indeed make it pointless compared to the standard wastegate, other than quality of manufacture and adjust-ability of spring rates.

Electronic boost controllers do things in the same kind of way, although even with these I do not plumb them in as per the manuals, there are some tricks to getting the best out of manual and electronic boost controllers, as well as explaining, as well as avoiding, some of the negative characteristics of electronic and manual boost controllers boost curves, as can be seen on dyno charts from time to time.

There is a much better way, but that is something else I am working on.
 

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

Sorry Frenchy, I should have made it clear that my comment was related to a DPW OE and DPW Tial both with Norgren (as per Promax/Lindsay) manual boost control.

Both of them manage a 1.2 bar limit on a 2.5L car.

I think the TiAL costs less and is better in quality... as well as being a new part rather than an old bead blasted part with a diaphragm housing bolted onto the top.

I used to use the Lindsey items, but found they can be a bit sticky and unpredicable, which is mostly down to the valve guide, poor machining when new and age.

The funny thing is.. I used to replace the valve guide in the Lindsey items with a better quality cylinder head valve guide, re-cut the seat and lap the valve in to get around this.. But now I do the same with the TiAL's as a belt and braces solution as it seems like a more precise solution.. So I could well have stuck with Lindsey items anyway!! However I still was not happy with using an old wastegate as the core, even with a new lindsey top section.

I think the Lindsey one is more expensive as well, not to mention you have to send them your old core and get charged for any damaged studs, which they usually are by the time you remove them.
 
Jon,
thats interesting, and makes good sense - the major tial drawback for me is the clamp to the T/Tube is omitted and this is means the exhaust stresses the turbo mount.

I think the sticky behaviour (have seen this just as you say) is due to lack of use, and proper hard use too. Turbo engines need to glow a bit to make them behave properly. I cleaned my OE one lightly with some 600 paper on the stem and guide, and gave it a hiding - sorted.

If you happen to have a two part clamp and waste gate drop down bracket in your store for sale, pls let me know and I will call you.

The other comment I would make while we're chatting is most 951's have excessive turbo sizes, they in turn overwork the waste gate as its dumping a lot of excess boost. With a smaller turbo, proper ECU/cam/intake/spark/exhaust the cars would be less laggy, less torquey and just as fast or faster.

thanks
George
 
Absolutely!

That is one of my main problems (among a few) with the LR61 and certainly the LR71 turbo's everyone fits. Big and very inefficient

One of the 3.2 engines is running a LR71 and even in that application it is only just beginning to make sense, even still, its seriously big.

 
I had the tial 38 on my car, never had any issues with creep or it coming loose. You are best to secure the bolts with wire anyway to stop them coming loose.

I used mine along with a greddy profec in dual port mode and it was reat. Genuinely could not believe the difference. Mine had the original old wastegate which must have become leaky with age, as soon as I fitted the tial, it was like a different car.
 
Here's a picture of my old 38mm TiAL fitted.

The pipe going to the right connects to the crossover at the front of the car and the pipe going left heads down to join the main exhaust towards the rear.

B9A323AD8CD741A7899B33C61F4B3D4C.jpg
 
I don't think it is the same. Look at this picture from the Lindsey site which shows the orientation of a stock style wastegate.

Gases enter the stock WG from the side and exit out the base.

Gases enter a TiAL WG from the base and exit out the side.

Please bear in mind I changed mine over 10 years ago so my memory is rusty, but the pictures show the story well.

wgin08.jpg
 
That really helps. Mine is same as pic off tial. Cross over pipe to base. Which is same as tial
Diagram I have. So no worries there.

Thanks
 
Good comparison images, is it correct then to say the OE part is configured so that the stem of the WG valve is under pressure as boost builds up, whereas the tial is not, (the stem is behind the seated valve)??

Or is there a reason why the OE is better that way I wonder??

George
944t
 

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