Early 911 - what to look out for?

oceancarrera · Jul 17, 2006

Hi all,

I'm considering an early pre-impact bumper 911 for high days and occasional weekend use for special nights into town or occasional blats into the countryside. Speed is not my main concern as I have the GT3 for those kicks, and I'm really looking for something that a) won't break the bank and b) will be reasonably low cost to maintain (if that's possible at all!). I've seen quite a few pre-impact bumper 911s around town, so I'm guessing they must be able to take start/stop traffic without too much difficulty.

My last drive in an early 911 (or bitsa!) was in a bored-out 2.4S to be a 2.7RS replica but with Carrera race cams and a G50 tranny. That went like the clappers and sounded like a million dollars (smelled like it too with the oil/petrol fumes) but sadly it was out of my budget at the time. I was, however, completely hooked and said to myself that I really would like... no, NEED... to get one sometime.

What model do you recommend I take a look at, and what are the specific things that I should focus on so that I don't waste my time looking at superficially good but poor examples? There seems to be a mine of information out there, but I was wondering if there are any quick tips that could be offered up here. My budget is probably around £20k.

Thanks in advance -
Adrien

Nick Moss · Jul 17, 2006

Hi Adrien.

I think we met at the Oulton Park trackday back in the early spring. Give me a call on 07980 017994 and I will talk you through the options. No strings attached but I do have a couple of nice cars for sale.

pmjt · Jul 17, 2006

ORIGINAL: oceancarrera
I'm considering an early pre-impact bumper 911 for high days and occasional weekend use for special nights into town or occasional blats into the countryside.

Well - a couple of things to consider - the first: SWB or LWB? To my mind, LWB is closer to the modern 911 in drive but lack some of the 'soul' of the earliest SWB cars. SWB cars require care in driving - but there's very little that's as rewarding as a quick point to point accross country in an early car.

If you can handle LHD then it'll save you a packet - the earliest 911's were made in small numbers of RHD (compared to present day) and rusted far more effectively than their LHD cousins due to our wonderful climate! If you can cope with LHD look for an ex US market car - they can be bought over t'other side of the pond for very good value and shipping isn't the hassle it used to be.

Coupe or Targa? The Targa's got a bad name due to the high speed rotting where water ran down into the rear of the car - however as a 'sunday blast' with the roof out it doesn't get much better.

Engines - 2.0ltrs rev sweetly but lack torque and all the action is above 4,000rpm - friends will think you're wringing the poor little beastie within an inch of its life - but in reality it's just being driven properly. 2.2's are sweet with more bottom end - 2.4's have all the torque but are a little less sweet revving.

Engines and wheelbases - SWB goes with the 2.0 - earliest LWB's were 2.0 then went to 2.2, 2.4 etc.

For the money you're looking to spend - my advice would be to buy the best LHD coupe you can find and avoid a car that needs bodywork (unless you want to spend your purchase budget again on fixing the body!). Increase your budgety by £5k and get into a nice RHD car.

If you can - get a drive in some early cars - most owners of the old girls are delighted to share the experience - I'm ooop north - if that works for you - let me know and I'll take you out in a 2.0ltr SWB and a later LWB.

Good luck and happy hunting [

]

P

vic cohen · Jul 17, 2006

good stuff professor T............Adrian ur welcome to a ride in my 2.4 s anytime,and i am not far away.................if Nick Moss still got an orange car he was telling me about at Classic Lemans go and see it without delay , if u want an hour of how it can all go ring me and u ll go out an buy a mini ..................2 years lots of dough and i wish i d never sold the last one for £6250 in 1976!!!THEY RE ALL GREAT !!!!!!

oliver · Jul 17, 2006

Also try posting the question on www.ddk-online.com

In addition to the above recommendations, you need to decide whether you want an original/collectable example, or a hybrid/modified/replica.

The other thing to bear in mind is these are 30 to 40 year old cars. Lots of people are attracted to the romantic ideal of an early 911 when the sun is shining and the days are long, but for a large part of the year the days are short the air is damp and cold and the roads are muddy. The novelty can wear off if you are not a real enthusiast.

From experience I would always buy the very best car I could afford, and this often means stretching the budget. Restoration work can be hugely costly, time consuming and soul destroying.

One of my favourites is the 2.4E. However, for many people, a better buy might be an exceptional, late, low mileage G50 Carrera 3.2. Still a classic 911, but a bit more robust and useable. Check out Tony Corlett's book. Also, nice cab in 'For Sale' section.

Good luck

Alex Postan · Jul 17, 2006

Whatever model you go for, get the very best that you can afford and be prepared to pay for an expert to inspect for you. It's the steel and rust that is your enemy, not the mechanical bits. If it is a pre galvanised car and it hasn't had a major body rebuild by a leading firm, then it needs one!

pmjt · Jul 17, 2006

If it is a pre galvanised car and it hasn't had a major body rebuild by a leading firm, then it needs one!

Er, that's not necessarily true - I have three cars that are '66, '67 and '73 - none of them have required a body rebuild - there are plenty of 'survivor' cars out there.

Now, the art is I agree with you, in identifying which are 'survivors' and which are 'dogs in disguise'!

P

early 911 · Jul 17, 2006

Here's 2 useful sites . . . .

http://www.356-911.com/modelinfo/porsche%20911%20menu.htm

http://www.911t.org/articles/rust/rust%20inspection.htm

Nick Moss · Jul 17, 2006

I have just added a page of horror pictures to my site so that you have an idea of what to look for when inspecting early 911s

RichardLW · Jul 17, 2006

well a trip to that site certainly put me off wanting one - not that I do but if I did....

oceancarrera · Jul 18, 2006

Gents - thanks for your advice thus far. I'll be sure to peruse the sites mentioned.

Nick - I'll drop you a line to have a chat.

Vic - thanks for the offer. It would be great to meet up sometime and go for a spin (or not!). Of course, it won't just be the 2.4, as I also know of a rather tasty Tango'd GT... [

][8D]

Melv · Jul 18, 2006

Adrien

Sound move -I DO enjoy the early cars.....

Nice ickle Autofarm 2.7RS replica at Paragon at the mo.......

However, I thought your missus was quite taken with the idea of a motorhome.......[

]

oceancarrera · Jul 18, 2006

Melv,
That Autofarm/Paragon one looks nice, but a touch out of budget (20k)
Only you can rightfully claim the 'Ring sticker on your motorhome[

], but also that lady you chatted to was not my missus.[

] Do let me know when you find mine! [

]
[

]

morris944s2john · Jul 25, 2006

ORIGINAL: Nick Moss

I have just added a page of horror pictures to my site so that you have an idea of what to look for when inspecting early 911s

So can rusty early 911's be picked up cheaply as a project? To someone who can weld, paint and made repair sections, those pictures do not look that scary. They look like a lot of work but not scary.

In fact, they look as though a good part of the car has survived intact and the rust is confined to certain areas (inner fron wing, whils "A" post looks sound.)

Nick Moss · Jul 25, 2006

So can rusty early 911's be picked up cheaply as a project?

You can find cars for as little £2K - £3K and there's lots of them out there [

]

pmjt · Jul 26, 2006

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john

ORIGINAL: Nick Moss

I have just added a page of horror pictures to my site so that you have an idea of what to look for when inspecting early 911s

Click to expand...

There is indeed nothing to be *scared* off on Nick's photo's - just plenty to be mindful of when buying.

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
They look like a lot of work but not scary.

What's the expression? "All things can be achieved given an limitless supply of energy and money!" [

] Yes, many projects are do'able by someone with the right skills - but the KEY thing is structural work is a nightmare - one small misalignment on the sill or inner wings and the whole thing will look / drive wrongly.

Trust me - there are *some* bits of early 911 restoration that should be left to experts.

But it's rare an early 911 is truly *dead* [

]

P

morris944s2john · Jul 26, 2006

There is a saying, "measure twice cut once", and the car should drive just fine after restoration, even by an "amateur" provided the suspension mounting points are still in the right places, and the car is still straight. (Thats why we brace door gaps etc- so the car keeps its shape when sill panels are cut out). You also only cut out the minimum at a time and weld in the new (slowly to avoid distortion).

I've seen some work by so called "experts" that is more scary than the rust.

And the 911, at the end of the day is basically just a car made of (by now rusty) mild steel, so no different when it come to the cutting and welding.

PMjit, have you done any serious restoration work?

pmjt · Jul 26, 2006

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
(Thats why we brace door gaps etc- so the car keeps its shape when sill panels are cut out). You also only cut out the minimum at a time and weld in the new (slowly to avoid distortion).

But it's not just door gaps that need support on a monocoque such as the 911 - there are certain points around the scuttle top, front and rear bulkheads etc. etc. which will deform the car if damaged by either accident or corrosion - and no matter WHAT you try and do this can never be compensated for.

Bracing the doors won't help the transmission tunnel to front and rear bulkhead alignment when you start cutting!

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
I've seen some work by so called "experts" that is more scary than the rust.

My point precisely - I'm not talking about replacing wings / exterior panels - it's the problem areas such as kidney bowls, inner wings and floor structures and bulkheads.

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
PMjit, have you done any serious restoration work?

Two 356 A Speedsters, four pre-1974 911's - a Carrera 2.7RS oh - and currently working on a 356A Carrera 4 Cam.....

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
And the 911, at the end of the day is basically just a car made of (by now rusty) mild steel, so no different when it come to the cutting and welding.

Have *you* ever worked on an early 911?

Without a proper jig, anyone cutting into the structure of an early 911 shell is heading for trouble.

P

morris944s2john · Jul 28, 2006

Unless you put the car on a body jig, have all the measurements and use a body jack to correct any dostortion!

I wasn't talking about just the door gaps and exterior panels.

Is an early 911 so weak in the structure that it deforms as soon as a few bits rust and are cut off for replacement???

Surely these cars are strong, durable and restorable.

I'm not talking about blindly cutting out swathes of body work/ structure without proper support or regard for the integrity of the structure.

Sounds like you are trying to put off the skilled amateur restorer (maybe to keep business coming into your shop?)[

]

Fair enough, but please don't underestimate what the so called "amateur" can do.

pmjt · Jul 28, 2006

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
Unless you put the car on a body jig, have all the measurements and use a body jack to correct any dostortion! I wasn't talking about just the door gaps and exterior panels.

Yes - but it's not just distortion that is in the shell before you start that you have to worry about....

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
Is an early 911 so weak in the structure that it deforms as soon as a few bits rust and are cut off for replacement???

No - they're stronger than any other car from that period - having been in a major accident on track in a 911 - and walking away unscarred - rest assured they are unbelievably strong.

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
I'm not talking about blindly cutting out swathes of body work/ structure without proper support or regard for the integrity of the structure.

Then we're talking the same language - but I HAVE seen too many early 911's where people HAVE cut in blindly only to wonder whe car crabs / doesn't drive straight / brake straight when they've completed the car.

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
Sounds like you are trying to put off the skilled amateur restorer (maybe to keep business coming into your shop?)[]

Erm, these are (or have been) all my own cars. I still own the 2.7RS and the 356 Carrera A 4Cam

ORIGINAL: morris944s2john
Fair enough, but please don't underestimate what the so called "amateur" can do.

I'm not - I like to be involved in every step of every restoration I've done - but even though I've rebuilt countles british sports cars on my own - early 911's with the current values they're enjoying and the complexity of the structure require certain jobs to be done properly and knowing the pitfalls. Otherwise you end up with a worthless car that is poor to drive.

Replacing the odd rust piece is well within the skill of many amateur restorers - replacing the inner wings, floors, bulk heads is an entirely different matter.

To return to the point of the original posters question - there are many things to look out for - but unless you have either deep pockets or a professional person and equipment (a Cellet jig runs to around £10k with Porsche mountings) then be careful when buying a 'cheap' 911 - and Nick's page of horrors is valid reading for those who wish to go into early 911 ownership informed.

P