Fancy a 220T

[Guest]

Hey all,

Me and my dad have come to the conclusion that we have too many cars/projects.

If we sell up then we can get a turbo for weekend and fun use.

I want something i can enjoy and just generally have fun and enjoy using, while maintaining it and making it suit my tastes (bridge spoiler, 968 side skirts)

Anyway basically Ive been driving around in the '84 lux and I'm majorly impressed, i had a 2.8 Capri before and i thought it wasn't going to go off them... but the 944 handles so well, stops so well, goes in a very smooth fashion and feels alot safer (or so a mate said)

Anyway basically the lux goes and my capri goes and a austin healey sprite I'm restoring. I'm thinking we will have about £3.5K to play with.

Looking about and watching on ebay theres been a couple of 220s go for £1600 which are needing TLC which isn't something I'm afraid of and its something we're both capable of doing ourselves. However obviously id like to get the best one possible for our money.

Theres currently a dark blue '87 one on ebay which looks rather smart, £3500 start price with no bids yet with the added bonus of a cream interior and a "944" plate

So it seems possible we can get one around the budget were planning on,

so can someone tell me the differences with the 250T, i don't think theres much chance of being able to afford one but id be interested in "improving" a 220, i think i read somewhere the turbos are different? 250's have thicker ARB's? and better brakes? The 220 had the option of a LSD but 250's had them standard? correct? also 250s had stronger 1st and 2nd gears? Is there a time-line anywhere on the net showing when certain improvements came in? didn't the later turbos have different shocks?

Is there any differences with the engine itself? as i would really like to aim closer to 300bhp than 200bhp. So what can be done to get around 300bhp? I guess like any turbo car people up the boost and "chip" it? With a car having done well over 100K miles then I'm expecting the turbo to be worn anyway so i guess replacing the turbo with a re-con one would be a sensible idea too? perhaps to the model on the 250T?

i guess thats all the questions for now, thanks [8|]

 

[Fen]

You know most of the differences already between the 250 and 220. The first 250s were the Silver Rose special edition cars in 1988, then for 1989 all Turbos were 250 spec.

The turbo was bigger (on the hotside) so it can move more air, but it's laggier. The extra power came purely from upping the boost by 0.07bar. There are possibly detail differences in the engine, but nothing of any significance. Brakes are bigger and hubs are different as they mount differently, '89 cars had adjustable (height and rebound) Konis, but for '90 on they went optional and Boge/Sachs non-adjustable was standard. Bridge spoilers came in in 1990.

 

[sawood12]

I wouldn't necessarily target a 220T or a 250T unless you want either for a specific reason e.g. the improved spec on the 250T cars. These cars are getting on a bit now and you should buy purely on condition, so set your budget and buy the best condition car you can regardless if it's a 220T or 250T. You could argue that if you are going to track the car then you would be better off with the 250T due to the bigger brakes and LSD.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

You'll not like me for saying this......JMHO

£3.5k is around the bottom of the turbo market. As has been said time and time again, keep at least £1k in your pocket for the things that you need to do with any car you buy.

If the budget is fixed at £3.5k, why are you thinking of chucking around 20% of the price of the car at a slightly different spoiler and some plastic trims for the sides????

 

[Guest]

thanks for the replys,
fen do you know what the turbo used on the later cars were? how easy is it to up the boost properlly, on the supra mk3 forum (nearly got one) they shim the wastegate with washers which doesnt really seem errrrrr the correct thing to do!

the car wont get used on the track, just as abit of fun on the road, so i dont think the brakes are too much to worry over. Whats the difference brake wise between the 220 & 250? i wouldnt have thought they would have designed a new caliper?

paul - thanks i realise that for my budget im not going to get a minter but something which is something to keep and maintain as a hobby. The sideskirts are just something i would do along the way not straight away... and as for a bridge spoiler i think i paid £30/40 for the one on the lux so thats hardly breaking the bank, i will swap it onto the new one and put the rubber one back on the lux.

 

[sawood12]

Shimming the wastegate is indeed a sticking plaster. The only way to really adjust the boost in a fully controlled and closed loop way is to instal a dual port wastegate with a boost control system. The front brakes on the250T were carried over from the 928S4 and the hub design was changed to accommodate. The brakes on a 220T are still pretty capable - 4-pot Brembo's all round - the same fitted to 964's, but the larger front brakes on the 250T are just bigger. You'd really have to be gunning it to notice the difference between the brakes on road use.

In a way a 220 turbo might be slightly better behaved for road use due to the smaller turbo which spools up a bit quicker but runs out of legs earlier at high revs compared with the larger turbo fitted to the 250T's.

 

[Diver944]

The 220 cars used a KKK 26/6 turbocharger, the 250 cars used a K26/8 turbocharger. If you are not after crazy power then a 26/6 can be run at up to 1bar boost for a maximum of about 280 bhp, you can get a bit more from the 26/8 up to around 300bhp but it is laggier than the 26/6. The engines are basically the same with a few minor revisions.

Ultimately the wastegate controls the amount of boost that the turbo makes and the standard one has a very weak spring which deteriorates even more over time. You can shim it a little with washers or spacers, but ideally you should change it to a dual port aftermarket wastegate so you can control the boost remotely. These cost between £250 (TiAL 38mm) to £450 (Lindsey)

If you are not doing trackdays then you don't need the beefier brakes, ARBS, suspension and LSD of the 250 car and would be better off with the cheaper (and lighter) 220 car IMHO []

 

[Fen]

The guys have answered the questions already. I'm going to disagree with Paul and say I think the LSD alone makes the 250 worthwhile over the 220 for road use. Or course there are 220s with optional LSD - mine had it.

That said I do have a soft-spot for the '86 Turbo with Fuchs wheels for some reason.

 

[Fen]

I forgot to say before - fitting the 968 sill trims is absolutely more effort than it's worth.

 

[DivineE]

Just out of interest one of those cheap turbo's that sold lately being mine which sold at £2000 (was up for £1500) I would never usually buy or sell one at that sort of value unless it were for parts! I only sold it because I had one day to raise the money for a deposit. I bought it for £2500 with no tax or MOT because it had a good engine. I then spent over 3k sorting all its serious issues (except the crap bodywork) to make it road legal. Would have been cheaper to buy a nice 220 turbo.


I believe the other car for 1600 had a big end failure so needed a completely re-built engine which would cost you more than 3.5k in parts alone with the new ancillaries you'd need to buy (oil pump, water pump, belt and rollers that's near 1k already).

I would save the extra and try to pay £5,000 for an early turbo or £7.5+ for a 250 turbo. I'm not trying to exaggerate the prices I've just looked at an awful lot of 944 turbo's in the last few years. I've seen only 1 car in my search for £4k that seemed mechanically sound but the paintwork and interior was really poor. All others for 4k or below had some major mechanical issues and usually smoked like a diesel on cooking oil! £4.5-5k should really be your budget and you will still have plenty of things to keep you busy for that money.

Ben (Just being realistic I'm afraid, it will save you money in the long run)