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Front Wishbones ..........

paulf968

New member
Has anyone got any old alloy front wishbones they can pass onto me? Either with the pin and bushings intact or indeed damaged ones - the sole requirement is that the alloy casting is complete and straight.

I'll tell you why. I have been investigating the refurbishment of these wishbones to a higher spec than std so that they will be more durable for racing heavily lowered cars. There have been a few failures this year and having looked at them it does seem that some simple refinements could be engineered in to make them stronger and safer.

Hope this thread can find a few which would then be upgraded & form an intial batch which could be tested by some of us.


Paul
 
That is rather proactive of you Paul, great proposition though and i am sure will certainly be welcomed by the racing fraternity. Larger pin + bored out spindle?

It is not pleasant when a wishbone fails [:D]

JP
 
JP -- hoping to have the first pair early in Jan -- then I will give them to Steve K at PCGB with a view to gettting them approved. They will meet the spirit of the regs so I hope approval will be straightforward. Watch this space

NB did see a pair of FABCAR charlie arms last week, wonderful things but at £2200 per pair delivered to the UK they are bonkers money and would never be approved by PCGB


Paul
 
You need to extend the length of the pin on lowered cars- not increse the pin dia. Simply increasing the pin dia will exasborate the problem. These kits are commonly used on 944's and well proven for racing in the states and can be bought from a company in the states called Rennbay. Not sure if they do a 968 version, don't see why they shouldn't.

I don't believe you can get the Charlie Arms anymore. The guy who made them did a last batch earlier this year as a group buy on the Rennlist forum. At least he said it was his last batch. They do look nice though. Racers Edge do a nice set with replaceable ball joints with varying length pins to suit the ride height of the car.
 
Scott.
The only snag with lengthening the pin, is increased bump steer...Or it feels like that anyway...
I have the Charlies fitted to my car with the 19mm pin + longer pins + the car handles differently to a standard car.. NOT neccessaryly better either...Just different...
What youve got to remember , this is PCGB racing were talking here.
Not as many mods are allowed as on the USA cars...
Charlies certainly arnt...Or at least they werent allowed over the last few years....
 
Granted Scott, i should have elaborated more - where the pin recesses for the retaining bolt it appears to be a weak point. The longer pin would reduce the occurence of the grounding out of pin against wishbone by drawing the angle of the pin to wishbone back in. I am sure i have read somewhere re increased leverage on the longer pin when it reaches the same grounding out scenario (and they typically do - otherwise to completely eliminate you would need a rather long pin) hence the need to increase the diameter also (moreover, find a way of eliminating the recessed part on the pin) to cope witht he forces exerted. I know it is not the ideal solution - engineering the problem out should be the solution.

Also, by lengthening the pin, one disrupts the steering arm/wishbone planes, and again, i was lead to believe this exacerbates the toe issue under compression.

I try not to offer comment on these issues - often too complex for a mere mortal like myself and often misleading rather than helpful. I'm fully prepared to either be shot down or educated on this particularly complex issue.

JP
 
Bump steer is caused by the angle of the steering arms on a lowered car - they point upwards instead of flat so when the wheel moves upward the steering arm is already higher up the arc and so you get an effective shortening (or lengthening, can't imagine it at the moment) of the arm which will toe in or out that particular wheel. You will get bump steer on a lowered car irrespective of what control arms you have fitted. Elephant Racing do bump steer correction kits that will again restore the angle of the steering arm to the same as stock.

The lengthening of the pin returns the angle of the control arm to a flatter plane ideally the same angle as it would be at stock ride height. If you don't lengthen the pin the arms will point upwards and the pin of the ball joint will be rotated outwards so under heavy braking or cornering there is a risk of the pin rotating and touching the rim of the socket at the end of the arm. This will eventually result in either a sheared pin or a fractured arm, whichever gives up first. They also do a 19mm dia pin kit (stock is 17mm) intended for racing to make the pin more robust for when you are riding kerbs. Clearly you need to have the ball joint aligned correctly or you'll have the problem I describe above. However this means you need to drill out the holes in the hub carrier to 19mm.

Yes the dimples on the pins can be a weak point. With the Rennbay kits they don't machine a dimple but a groove around the whole circumference of the pin which, though difficult to believe as you automatically think you are weakening the pin, actually relevies stress concentrations.

The geometry correcting kits with lengthened pins do look a bit disconcerting as they look too long and slender, but they are very strong. I saw a photo of a car that had a drivers side head on collision and the lenghtened Rennbay pin was bent nd the Control Arm had acutally snapped about 4 inches inboard of the ball joint, so the pins are stronger than the arms.

Also with the Rennbay kits you can get them with Phospher Bronze bushes instead of Nylon ones as with stock kits. The Nylon bushes don't last very long at all and break down and you end up with the steel ball grinding into the alloy socket. The phospher Bronze bushes not only tighten up the socket but will last. They also have grease nipples so you can renew the grease inside the ball joint at service time.

If they do the Rennbay kit for 968's i'd heartily recommend them.

Anyway, this is the sum total of my knowledge on this subject that i've accumilated over my extensive research ahead of installing the KW suspension on my old 944 turbo (sorely missed!!). With KW suspension, RE solid top mounts, Rennbay geo correcting ball joint kit and 968 castor bushes the car had really responsive and tight steering feel. It was a massive improvement over stock and felt much tighter than a modern sportscar - even a Boxster. It was a joy to drive.

I'm sure there are some holes in my understanding, but I did research it and asked may people directly who have had good and bad experiences with lowering these cars. Short of upgrading to Charlie Arms or RE arms, this is about the best you can do with stock control arms to minimise the chance of them failing if you lower the car. I don't believe this problem is as prevelant on the 968 as the 968 arms are considered an upgrade on 944's, but if you start lowering the car you need to look into these things carefully.
 
all good stuff

for the avoidance of any doubt the 'racing refurb' to these arms that I am organising through a recognised practicioner in this art is designed to:

- be a direct substitute in all regards to the std arm as regards arm material & proportions, so that it should meet the letter of the PCGB Club Championship regs.
- have a pin of stronger material with a small groove for the pinch bolt rather than an annular groove - ie preserving as much of its cross sectional area as possible
- preserve the inboard rubber bushing, again to meet the regs.
- finally, be slightly modified to allow the pin to lean out approx 5 degrees further away from the car, this with the intention to prevent bending of the pin if it reaches full travel under conditions of severe bump compression.

NB some of you may know, but I repeat it here, Porsche Club N America banned the use of the std OEM arms in 944/968 for race use where cars are often heavily lowered (copies easily found via google). For a while a Porsche competition part was made with a pin as described above but these are now obselete. Some USA championships even went to the extent of 'approving' particular aftermarket arms, the FABCAR one as mentioned above is still made and IMO is a very nice piece of kit BUT will set you back over £2200 for a pair delivered to the UK -( NOV 2009 price see: www.ogracing.com)
 
This is very good of you to organise this Paul. For me the most important aspect of what you are trying to achieve though is low cost. I believe that is why the PCGB championship rules specified things like factory suspension mountings, however as many of us have found these parts can be very expensive. In the case of wishbones expensive and prone to failure.

I asked Hartech sometime ago about replacement rear torsion bar spring plates, and front top mounts but didn't get an answer. I believe it was Grant I talked too. Factory spec replacements/refurbs at a reasonable price for these other parts would have a market outside of racing as well.
 
Look forward to see what you come up with Paul, and sincerely hope that they are well received.

Great read Scott, i am sure most of us will learn from your post. Had thought about the bump steer correction kit before - has anyone actually used one. Have noticed they are more prevalent on 911's (re availability) but not come across anyone having used one. Re your mods - i know what you mean, pleasure to drive....but some of those 'A' roads can be challenging.

JP
 

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