Fuchs 10-40w Synthetic Oil

[karlj0]

Not sure if anyone can help.
Just picked up my new C4 and noticed the oil needed an urgent top up.

Rather than driving all the way to halfords for some Mobil1 i stopped at the nearest garage and used some Fuchs 10-40W

Has anybody got any experience with this stuff ? / Will it be ok for my car ?

 

[John Maddox]

You will be ok provided it was just a top up but you should get in a few litres of Mobil 1 for the future.

Are you used to the 911 oil checking method ? Engine hot, idle for 30 seconds or so and dip the oil with motor running.(The gauge will always be in the red when driving so disregard)

Mind clothes etc in the fan !!

I hope you have many happy miles in your new Porsche.

 

[karlj0]

Hi John thanks for that

I read up on the oil checking method in advance and kept the engine running for a minute or so while i checked the stick. The oil was very low on the stick indeed which was a bit of a worry hence why i made do with the Fuchs.
I'll make sure i stick to Mobil 1 from now on with any future top ups.
The guage on the dash was also reading very low when stationary.

PS Is there a warning light to alert you when the oil is critically low ?

 

[John Maddox]

Can't recall a low oil warning light - I tend to keep an eye on the gauge when idling in traffic and as you did, using the dipstick regularly.

You will soon come to know your 911's oil consumption - they all seem to be different. We have little excuse for missing anything with 3 gauges for oil situations !!!

My 993 uses little oil despite a mega mileage of 163k - I have twice driven to Switzerland and back in last two years and no top up was needed on either trip. The first time I got nervous about this and dipped the oil at each stop much to my wife's dismay !

 

[Dave Wilkinson]

ORIGINAL: karlj0

I read up on the oil checking method in advance and kept the engine running for a minute or so while i checked the stick. The oil was very low on the stick indeed which was a bit of a worry hence why i made do with the Fuchs.
I'll make sure i stick to Mobil 1 from now on with any future top ups.
The guage on the dash was also reading very low when stationary.

PS Is there a warning light to alert you when the oil is critically low ?

You didn't mention it but I assume you DID check the oil when the engine (and oil) were HOT?? The oil level on both gauge and dipstick will not register until the oil thermostat is open - and that only happens when the oil temperature gauge gets to the first mark up the gauge.

There is no such concept as "critically low oil level" unless it's virtually empty since the engine is dry sumped. The oil tank holds the main oil capacity and oil is drawn into the engine as required. You can safely run with very low oil level for short periods as long as the oil pressure is maintained.

If you felt the oil level was low I can only imagine the car was not serviced before you picked it up - in which case I would be tempted to have it serviced as a matter of some urgency, making sure it's filled with the oil of your choice.

Regards

Dave

 

[Mark Elder]

Welcome to the 993 world. Did you get the car with the pulsing brakes the dealer was going to fix?

Of course we want pictures.....

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: karlj0

Has anybody got any experience with this stuff ? / Will it be ok for my car ?

Coming back to the original point made in this thread, I think that this is a very interesting question at the moment. I have concerns that in the drive to become SM approved, Mobil 1 & some other oils will become less suitable for our air-cooled 911s. I would suggest to everyone who has not read this thread to have a read of it at least once, as I did: http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

I am very unsure about what to put in my car at the next oil change. To summarise from what I've read so far:

Mobil 1 has lower levels of zinc & phosphorous than it used to. Of course manufacturers won't disclose this information directly to us, but read the article, it's interesting. These are essential for anti-wear and our air cooled 911s put the anti-wear properties of our oil under much greater pressure than water-cooled engines (larger valve gear, flat tappets, hotter-running, more hot-spots in air-cooled engines etc). Okay, boron is used in the latest formulations to minimise wear but this is largely unproven so far & fuels have to be ultra low sulphur for it to work.

Also, imagine your engine, sitting there in the garage for a week or three as many of our engines must do, before you come out & start it up. Non-polar PAO type IV oils like Mobil 1 are not attracted to metal surfaces & will just run downwards off bearings, cylinder bores etc under the force of gravity, leaving your engine potentially unprotected during those crucial start-up seconds/minutes. Okay, some of the additives might counteract this but they will be degraded/diluted with time & miles.

I know it's controversial, but I cant' get away from the temptation to put Fuchs, Motul or Silkolene ESTER-based oil in my car at the next oil change. Esters are polar, so stick to metal much better than PAO-based oils. They are the base stock used in aircraft engines - designed to withstand much higher shear forces than would be found in a humble car engine. There must be some significance to the fact that they are the gold standard for lubrication in jet engines.

You may say "yes but they are not Porsche-approved". This approval process involves the oil producer paying Porsche to analyse their oil & if it passes, it's okay. If the producer doesn't think it's worth the cost, they won't be Porsche-approved. Maybe some producers think that Mobil 1 has the Porsche market cornered? I have been reliably informed that Silkolene Pro-S 5W-40 for example (a top ester-based oil) easily attains all the anti-shear, temperature stability, anti-foaming etc standards that Porsche-approved oils do. Also, I believe that it was approved in the past - anyone know about this? I suspect that the ester-based oil producers, who make their oil for use in top racing engines etc etc don't think it's worth getting Porsche-approved for a potentially small amount of revenue.

Okay, many of you will say "I'll just use an approved oil for peace of mind", but with the new SM standard coming in to supposedly protect catalytic converters, potentially at a cost to some engines, I think we need to think about this.

Interestingly Mobil 1 MX4T motorcycle oil is a possibility - not officially approved but Mobil 1!!!??? It has nice high zinc & phosphorous levels to protect our older air-cooled engines' flat tappets against wear & is designed for air-cooled bike engines (c.f. our 911 engines). It's designed for bike engines, which run at much higher RPM than our engines. It's also 10W-40, so really shouldn't be too viscous when cold in our climate. Some in the USA are moving to this - just check out Rennlist or the Pelican forum, it's fascinating & an eye-opener.

Pleeaassee give me some logical replies to these hypotheses. It might be time to think outside the box if we want 200K-plus 993 engines that haven't had rebuilds.

I've still got an open mind, a bit like karlj0! [8|]

Roddy

 

[Nick]

A very interesting read !.

 

[Guest]

One further addition to the above...I believe that Mobil are changing their line-up of automotive oils soon but don't know any more than this.

As a general point from an oil supplier, apparently there's more demand for ester-based oils from customers - significant?

Any comments on the above long post from yesterday anyone? I wish Maurice was available to advise.... [8|]

 

[John Maddox]

I would like to use an ester based oil of the right grade that is easily available but I can't find one. If Mobil start to produce one I would buy it.

 

[Guest]

ORIGINAL: John Maddox

I would like to use an ester based oil of the right grade that is easily available but I can't find one. If Mobil start to produce one I would buy it.

Why not Silkolene Pro-S 5W-40? That's within Porsche spec for weighting...[8|]

 

[Guest]

Check out this thread that I started with the Rennlist folks. I think I've found the best oil there is for our cars!

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=379662



P.S. I would add that I've got no affiliation whatsoever to any oil company, reseller etc. I just wanted to resolve this issue that has been bugging me for months.

Motul 8100 Ester E-Tech 0W-40 it seems to be then!

Unless, of course someone comes up with a decent new argument to the contrary... []

 

[Guest]

Data sheet (under 0w40 E-TECH) - note "Porsche Approved". Hopefully we'll be able to get this in the UK [:-]

http://eurosyntheticoils.com/pages/p...oil/index.html

 

[Guest]

Answer: yes you can get this oil in the UK, 'cos I've checked.

Also, apparently ester-based oils provide a coating over the metal surfaces in your engine for up to 6 weeks...

[][][]

 

[karlj0]

Hi Folks

Many thanks for all of the input on this subject.

PS Marke2. Yes it is the car that had the pulsing brakes on the test drive. This was caused by a faulty ABS sensor on one corner. All now seems ok except the front switch on the drivers seat doesnt work. Hopefully just a switch swap if i can fathom out how to remove the faulty one.

I will post some pics shortly, once ive worked out how to to it.

Cheers

Karl.

1996N Carrera4 Wide Body
Polar Silver Mettallic
93K Miles
18" Turbo Alloys

 

[38F3E1]

ORIGINAL: roddylennox

Check out this thread that I started with the Rennlist folks. I think I've found the best oil there is for our cars!

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=379662



P.S. I would add that I've got no affiliation whatsoever to any oil company, reseller etc. I just wanted to resolve this issue that has been bugging me for months.

[FONT=arial"]Motul 8100 Ester E-Tech 0W-40 it seems to be then!
[FONT=arial"]
[FONT=arial"]Unless, of course someone comes up with a decent new argument to the contrary... []

Are you sure this is the oil you want. The discussions point to Motul 300V 5W-40 as being a very good oil. And I can believe it. The Motul 300V range seems very good with high levels of Zn and P. Have used Motul 300V 10W-40 before and again a very good oil but because it's a 10W oil not so good for cold start.

With Porsche being pretty clear that going to 0W or 5W is a good thing last year I changed to Mobil 1 0W-40 because of wanting a 0W oil. Surpirisingly engine has not leaked a drop so think it is very engine specific as to whether the thin oils leak. Probably mileage related too..

Now starting to think that I would like higher Zn and P levels so thinking about switching back to Motul and specifically Motul 300V 5W-40 because it has the correct hot and cold weights, good Zn and P levels. Trouble is I don't believe Motul 300V 5W-40 is available in the UK and I would really prefer a 0W oil. Which then gives the choice of going with one of the oils on of the official recommended 0W or 5W oils and worrying about Zn and P levels (and that would seem to include 8100 E-Tech from how I read it) or going back to Motul 300V 10W-40 which is a bit heavy when cold. Or going something like Red Line oils, or Joe Giggs, or .... if only this was simple ...

Ideally I would like a 0W-40 fully synthetic with hign Zn and P levels but that doesn't seem to exist.

Ian.

PS not sure it's worth getting too hung up about the easter vs POA debate as it's the whole package that's important IMO.

 

[Guest]

Thanks to everyone for your comments & to you Ian for the last post as well. I have come to the conclusion that Silkolene Pro-S 5W-40 will be the oil that I go for after spending many hours researching this subject on several forums, including a specialist oil forum & coming to the following conclusions:

• You can't get Motul Ester E-Tech 0W-40 any more - it's apparently out of production
• There are definite benefits to be had from a type V PAO/ester mix oil over a type IV PAO only oil
• Zn & P levels have fallen in Mobil 1 & other new SM type oils. These are crucial anti-wear additives. I have not been able to find much evidence to reassure me that the alternative formulations are at least as good, particularly as our older cars with their flat tappets & hot-running engines need particularly good protection. My catalytic converter is less important when I only do circa 2K miles per year, if that. Silkolene Pro-S 5W40 has lots of Zn & P. [8D]
• There are politics of oil approval. Cost of approval is high. Competing oil fomulations within certain oil trading groups of companies means some niche brands won't get a look in. If M1 has the lion's share in the Porsche market, would you spend a lot of money getting approval if it might not be worth it?
• Silkolene Pro-S 5W40 was approved recently, but it is not on the current list. I note that Silkolene are now owned by Fuchs. Fuchs have some approved oils.
• Silkolene Pro-S 5W40 is approved for BMWs & Mercedes - this must carry considerable credibility (does that mean even that very nice new M3?! Some engine in that...)
• I've seen no data comparing M1 to its competitors directly in terms of mega-mileage tests.
• Delvac (a Mobil product) is a highly respected diesel oil & arguably in one of the hardest-punished applications out there. Guess what's in it...? Esters ( + PAOs in the base stock mix)
• Any big player out there has to spend £££ on advertising and must surely have to produce their oil to a cost to ensure good profit margins. Do we get a tighter deal with M1 because of this? I don't know. Those McLarens do look nice though...!
• Although esters are hydrophilic, the additives in the oil will counteract any tendency to absorb water & corrode your engine
• Buying additives & putting them in a carefully-blended high performance oil is not the way for me to go personally.
• The guys at Opie oils tell me that Silkolene Pro-S 5W40 is the best oil to go for. This must count for something - they clearly value their reputation hugely. Anyone trying to pull the wool over our eyes would not last long out there. I have no affiliation to them in any way however and none to Silkolene!
• At the end of the day, there are thousands of opinions out there on oils for our cars & I would never claim that anyone must follow my daft decision-making process. You either accept the Porsche approved oils document & leave it at that or like me, come to the conclusion that there is something better to put in your car, taking the above facts into consideration. M1 is a great oil, I just think that there is even better out there.

Hope this doesn't ruffle too many feathers. Only my personal opinion. I'll let you know when my engine gets to 1 million miles & sounds like a swiss clock (or on the contrary, when it goes in for a complete rebuild!!!)

Regards, Roddy

 

[Guest]

Roddy,

Enjoyed the read(s) - and grateful for all the research effort you put in.

Mine's going in for a service on Monday - with me also having just recently had no choice but to top up with a drop of dubious stuff - and I'm now looking forward to having a debate about what should go in!

Joe

(M-reg C4)

 

[Guest]

Hi folks,

For anyone who didn't fall asleep long ago ( ), here are a couple of rather interesting links. Used oil analysis (UAO) gives the bottom line I think, with actual metal quantities, indicating likely wear levels in your engine:

http://www.performanceoilnews.com/oils_against_oils.shtml

and

http://www.streetunitforum.com/archive/index.php/t-3694.html

I know this is quite a lot to read, but it's fascinating. Coming back to the ester question, for road cars (not race cars), maybe they aren't the greatest thing since sliced bread. First, their water-absorbing properties in a car sitting around in the garage are not optimal. Second, there are questions around their compatibility with some of the seals in the engine.

Oh well, I got there in the end, after flailing myself thoroughly. Dare I say it, but maybe Mobil 1 is the oil to go for?!! [][][]

...point is, I had to go & find this information myself. I needed the science.

Now, who's for the best way to start the engine after it's been sitting for a while - DME out anyone?

Arrghhhh, oh no, it's happening again [][8D]

 

[Guest]

Hi Maurice,

Thanks for your wise comments. Great to have you back. You're absolutely right, jet & car engines are indeed very different. My journey through some of the science behind type IV versus type V oils, starting with a simple, but flawed hypothesis, has been a fascinating one. Hopefully the science that I have touched on, with some of the links in this thread may help some people further if they are curious when deciding on an oil. One helpful issue, which I don't think has come through very strongly in the PCGB forums so far is Used Oil Analysis. Bob is the Oil Guy's forum is the one for those! Probably most people don't see the need to dig so deeply. I'm just a bit obsessive! My web research has indeed shown that Mobil 1 is, indeed a very good oil and likely to be the best for our cars.

Zn & P levels may be lower in SM oils these days (as Charles Navarro says on his website, but we will never be privy to the secret formulas that the oil companies concoct to move oil up to the next level. Maybe UOA helps us somewhat though.

That, coupled with the hydrophilic properies & possibly elastomer-unfriendly characteristics of some esters (which I only recently discovered) makes a type V oil less attractive to me now as I think about the block in my 993 sitting there in the garage waiting for the weekend. Jet engines don't really get the chance to sit around for the oil to have the chance to absorb water. Type V oils with a significant amount of ester in the base stock like Silkolene Pro-S 0W-40 etc., may be an option for daily drivers that also do some track work, but not for my weekend toy.

The 0W characteristics of M1 would, I would imagine, lead to this oil being very well-circulated around the engine before it even starts as you suggest. Also treating the block & box with care until they are both up to normal operating temperature must also be a huge factor in the longevity picture. I suppose this is where looking at other peoples' UOAs & trying to compare them might be misleading if they have different driving characteristics.

I've read the TSBs & oil section on this forum and Rennlist ad nauseam - now I trust them, despite all the many different opinions flying around out there.

I wonder if anyone's doing UOAs on their cars in the UK?! []

Anyway hopefully off this weekend with R10 to give her a trip out. [8D]