Fuel and brake lines

[H823ENM]

Good evening

I've just had my car serviced at OPC and asked them to change the fuel filter, they didn't do this as they said the fule line was corroded as were the brake lines, not critical at present but a job for the future, however they quoted £1750 to do them as the rear axle needs to come off, is this reasonable? I've asked before if there are any decent Indies down near eastbourne but to no avail, anyway advice on the lines would be appreciated.

Thanks
Martin

 

[sawood12]

This old chestnut. In short yes, you need to get your fuel lines seen to, however there are two schools of thought on this:-

1. Go OEM. This is costly and most indys will want to remove the rear axel - though my indie reckons he can do it without having to remove the axel though it is a real PITA.

2. Go flexi's. Lots of people opt for this as it is cheaper and they seem to be perfectly fit for purpose according to the people who have done it. I personally have experience of flexi fuel lines in my line of work and, though they work fine, do require to be inspected frequently as they do fret, and also the fuel lines are exposed to the rubbish thrown up from the rear wheel. However as I said before, the experience of people who have gone this route so far is that they are perfectly fine, so that is probably your best solution.

Really it is upto you in terms of how much you are willing to spend. If there is other work needed that requires the axel to be removed then that is obviously the time to have it done.

In terms of brake lines - when I first got my car the rear line needed replacing and because it is routed over the top of the transaxel the transaxel ideally needs removing. I just got the guy to route it under the transaxel and it cost £30 to have the line made up. When next my transaxel was removed for some other work I then got the guy to route it correctly, again at negligable extra cost.

 

[pylonracer]

The fuel line job where it goes by the rear torsion tube, left side is a real pain in the backside, it is just about possible to do without dropping the rear suspension, I let the suspension go on the left side and dropped it by about 25mm, I then managed to get the fuel line and union nut through the gap.

Using Porsche fuel lines will cost you close to £200 for the parts.

My advise is if you can find any safe way to use some other kind of hose which does not need the suspension moving then do it. I would have scrapped the car if I had known how much work was involved, but I had also spent about £400.00 on parts getting the car ready for the MOT. I have owned my 944 for about ten years but had not used it for about three years hence the decay had set in on the fuel lines.

This fuel line rot problem is going to become one of the main reasons that early 944's get scrapped in the next few years.

Baz

 

[Fen]

I'd agree with Scott's analysis except for one point. While flexi line is acceptable for the fuel pressure it will see and hence is OK (assuming it's designed for fuel of course) it really should have the ends of the hard line it is attached to flared. I don't know how difficult it would be to flare the ends of the remaining pipes, though you might be able to get some sort of ferrule on there to do the same job.

It shouldn't come off, but anywhere you see an OEM flexi pipe it will be clamped over the flared end of a hard pipe, and they go to the cost of flaring for a reason as I'm sure any manufacturer would love to make a saving. If it were to come off then it's possible the car could catch fire through spraying fuel onto the brakes or exhaust. That's a worst-case scenario, but it's possible.

Last thing to consider is that the insurance company should probably be informed if you go flexi. It's a modification and as stated above it could make the chance of fire more likely. If they weren't informed and the car is crashed the chances are they'll never notice, but if it's burned out and they look for the cause and find it to be fexi fuel lines where the OE was steel they might just refuse to pay out.

As an aside when the beam is dropped there is a very, very good chance (100% of the cases I know about) that the mounts will be failing and need to be replaced, which is another £220+VAT for parts at the last prices I heard.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

ORIGINAL: H823ENM

Good evening

I've just had my car serviced at OPC and asked them to change the fuel filter, they didn't do this as they said the fule line was corroded as were the brake lines, not critical at present but a job for the future, however they quoted £1750 to do them as the rear axle needs to come off, is this reasonable? I've asked before if there are any decent Indies down near eastbourne but to no avail, anyway advice on the lines would be appreciated.

Thanks
Martin

Eek - had mine replaced with flexi-pipe for about £100 plus the vat, by an MOT station with racing pedigree. I chose not to drive the 40 minutes to my indie as they were actually pouring, rather than dripping, fuel.

You're lucky being on the South coast, as there are indies local to you who will offer a far better service. If you're struggling then it's worth the hour or so to travel up to London where you'll have the choice of plenty of specialists. If you're stuck for where to go, there are plenty of ads in the Porsche Post.

I don't even consider the extra journey to a specialist. It's 20 mins to a main dealer, but for 40 mins I get a choice of three highly experienced 944 enthusiasts.

I appreciate that some cars have a full OPC history from new. It is essential in the first few years of a car's service history. Please understand that this is actually worth less to some buyers, and arguably devalues the car, as nearly all the guys who were factory-trained on the 1980s cars are now working for the indies. I wouldn't want some muppet who's never met a computer diagnosing an airbag fault on my 997, but I'd also not want a computer-specialist to re-route my 944 fuel lines. [8|]

 

[pylonracer]

I forgot to say that there was a long bolt in the suspension that need drilling out, it was the one that goes forwards from the alloy casting that the tube sits in, the bolt picks up with brackets on the underside of the body. The bolt was completely fused into the metal tube that it goes through.

Paul raises good points about the flexible fuel lines being viewed as a modification.

Baz

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Paul raises good points about the flexible fuel lines being viewed as a modification.

I can see why this might be used by an insurance company in the event of a claim, but mine's had no issues with subsequent MOTs in two different stations so I'd be prepared to argue it out in court....[8|]

I'd be more concerned about the possibility of damage from debris thrown up from the road. Again not something I've personally been unduly worried about, as the fuel lines are part of any decent indie's inspection every time a car come into their workshopand any damage would be obvious.

 

[JamesO]

I'd agree with Scott's analysis except for one point. While flexi line is acceptable for the fuel pressure it will see and hence is OK (assuming it's designed for fuel of course) it really should have the ends of the hard line it is attached to flared. I don't know how difficult it would be to flare the ends of the remaining pipes, though you might be able to get some sort of ferrule on there to do the same job

ORIGINAL: Fen
Just changed the inline fuel filter on my girlfriends 2001 ford and it used push fittings, I didn't even need a spanner and not a flare in sight (couldn't believe how easy it was). I would have thought that if the fittings were of a good standard and of the correct size and spec then it would not be necessary to flare the pipe.

 

[JamesO]

Oops got that a bit wrong!

 

[piperboxster]

On my last 944 I had them replaced by Jon Mitchell JMG in Bournemouth who did a wonderful job of replacing them with high pressure flexible items which are quick and easy to install (I had them do it) which even with labour worked out cheaper than buying the genuine pipes without having them fitted.

I know with my Boxster they also do mail order for parts.

get in touch with them at www.jmgarage.co.uk

 

[H823ENM]

Thanks for the feed back, I'll look towards London in the porsche post first, I'm sure there was someone near Horley (gatwick area) but can't remember who. The thing I'm concerned about is the price seeing as the rear strutts had just been done, should it still have cost that kind of money?

I will say there seems to be an element of snobbery about OPCs not being able to deal with the older cars, I would have thought that the newer models were far mor complex but with the basics the same and generally having to work in a smaller space. I've never had any real issues with them (except cost), which is why I use them.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

From memory prices for the full job at a decent indie with South-East prices range from about £600 to about £1000 at a place near me who are near-OPC rates. £1750 sounds insanely expensive.

The point about OPCs and older models is that they might well have no-one there who has experience on the cars. Fair enough if they do have a staff member with 20-plus years in the OPC who will work on your car. It's not hard to see where the price will rocket if there's a higher labour rate and the guys don't know the cars inside out, with the speed that brings, as an indie with decades of experience will. It's not about snobbery, inverse or otherwise, it's about paying double or more for the same, if not worse, service. My indie is the same price per hour as the "backstreet" garage I use for the van and the step-kids bangers. With his intimate knowledge of 944s he does the work in a fraction of the time, and so works out a lot cheaper. Not that I don't trust the local guys, they're only cars after all, just that I don't mind saving money....[8|]

 

[Neil Haughey]

Fen is right, it cost me a fortune because I had the fuel and brake pipes all done at the same time, dropping the torsion tube also required replacement of all the mounts. Every single one of them was shot and ISTR most of the bolts needed intervention and replacement as well. The man hours count was horrific.

 

[sawood12]

The Indy I use is Porsche trained and worked for Porsche for about 10yrs before going it alone and he is well versed with the older models which in his view are far more tricky to work on than the newer models. The main reason why he left Porsche to set up on his own is that he saw a shift in the way Porsche was working and saw it turn from a 'specialist' type of service to a much more high throughput type of operating model favouring high margin servicing type work than proper ground roots fault diagnosis and repair work. Needless to say he didn't like the direction they were going. As a result he saw most of the experienced guys leave and being replaced by younger chaps who didn't know the early models coming from a variety of backgrounds like Kwik Fit for example.

This is backed up by another indy I use who gets alot of their work from the local OPC. One Saturday I went in there and they had about ten cars which had been offloaded to them to work on and it was all mostly repair type work and body work rather than straight forward servicing.

Having said that the disclaimer is that all the OPC's are independant business at the end of the day and it seems there is alot of variety across the OPC network with regards quality of work, parts prices etc.

 

[Fen]

I can back that up also. My indie set up on his own 5 or 6 years ago now as he was fed up of the 'plug in and read the fault code' diagnosis of the new cars. He has told me about how he'd jump at servicing a 3.2 Carrera for 2 solid days and everyone else basically saying "fill your boots, nutter".