Future of the Flat-6 in the Cayman [and Boxster]

[Motorhead]

I've posted this elsewhere but think that it really deserves its own post.

On the subject of engines, here's a thing:

All current 981 and 991 cars use the Gen2 DFI as a base. According to press reports, the GT3 RS will use a 4.0-litre version of the new [Gen3?] engine as will the 3.0-litre [?] and 3.4-litre [?] turbocharged flat-6 engines in the revised 991.2 Carrera and Carrera S due later this year. The new 2.0-litre [?] flat-4 engine is also rumoured to be a 4-cylinder version of this engine, which would make sense from the production standpoint.

This means that the 981-series cars as well as the 991 GT3 and Turbo will still be using the Gen2 engine for the time being. We have to assume that the GT3 and Turbo will be updated to Gen3 spec at some stage and we must also assume that a flat-6 will still be available in the revised 981.2 Boxster and Cayman, but will it be the Gen3 engine or a run-out version of the Gen2? I presume that the Gen3 will just be a development of the Gen2 and assume that they're dimensionally similar but a GT4 wouldn't use a N/A 3.8-litre GT3 engine and the Carrera engines would be too small a capacity in N/A form for the Boxsters and Caymans, so there would have to be 3.4 and 3.8-litre N/A versions of the base engine for the S, GTS and GT4 cars.

Preuninger has said that GT4 production time will be limited and that the GT cars will be normally aspirated for at least a couple of years and we're anticipating 2-years delivery of GT4s but beyond that, who knows? I'm sure that the GT4 will be successful and will become an established part of the Cayman line-up but it's impossible to say what engine it'll have. Hopefully it'll track it's GT3 sibling and have a N/A flat-6.

I think that it's accepted that the next generation of Caymans [MY2018?] are going to be turbocharged but will a flat-6 turbo be included?

Just my thoughts of course.

Jeff

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead I think that it's accepted that the next generation of Caymans [MY2018?] are going to be turbocharged but will a flat-6 turbo be included? Just my thoughts of course. Jeff

Jeff having read that the 981 Flat 4 Turbo engines will already match or beat the current Flat 6 on performance, mpg and less CO2's why would there be a need for Flat 6's that could easily embarrass the flagship which we all know is never going to happen[]

 

[Motorhead]

I'm sure that's the case Rob. You only have to look at the high power outputs and low emissions from the current batch of 2.0L turbo 4-cylinder hot-hatch offerings from the likes of Ford, Honda and VAG to realise that it's going to be the way forward for Porsche. It looks as though something like a 280PS 2.0L turbo flat-4 engine will be introduced for entry-level 981.2 Boxsters [and Caymans?] later this year, with the N/A flat-6 soldiering on in either DFI Gen2 or maybe Gen3 guise for a few years in the S, GTS, GT4 and probably Spyder variants. The next generation of mid-engine cars due around 2018/2019 are bound to use Gen3 turbo engines but the big question is whether or not both flat-4 and flat-6 engines will be available and also whether or not the GT4 will buck the trend and keep a N/A flat-6 engine? My guess is that the Cayman and Boxster could be offered with two capacities of flat-4 turbo, say 2.0L and 2.4L, the latter with different states of tune for the S and GTS variants. Assuming the GT4 will remain part of the stable, I've no idea what engine it'll end up with but I do hope that all the GT cars will remain N/A for a few more years. After all, the limited numbers available will make very little difference to Porsche's aggregate fuel consumption figures. There's a lot of whinging from the N/A enthusiasts lobby that tubocharging will degrade the marque but I suspect that Porsche will weather the criticism easily. After all, apart from enthusiasts like ourselves, how many Porsche sportscar buyers really know [or care?] what's under the bonnet? Jeff

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead After all, apart from enthusiasts like ourselves, how many Porsche sportscar buyers really know [or care?] what's under the bonnet? Jeff

Have to agree and I can remember when Porsche made that big jump from air cooled to water []like it was only yesterday [] I guess as you rightly say the way forward for all will be smaller engines with ever clever turbo charging so the need for the bigger engines will probably be for the top of the range models only but even that may have had it's day when you consider what a BMW 1.8i with a electricity & 1.5L 3 Cylinder petrol engine can achieve today 350 bhp

 

[Motorhead]

Yes Rob, we're beginning to see hybrid technology appearing in the high-end sportscar market and it will be trickling down into the everyday sportscars at some time. Mind you, word has it that BMW i8 owners are only achieving around 30mpg in the real world [a bit of a problem with only a 30 litre fuel tank?], so there's some way to go yet. Everything will be led by emission regualtions at the end of the day [95gms CO2/km ~ 69mpg by 2021] but I think that small capacity, high-output intercooled turbocharged petrol engines have some way to run yet. You only have to look at offerings from companies like Revo to see what's available, even from their Stage 1 ECU remap: Mk7 VW Golf GTi : 217bhp to 320bhp; 258lbf-ft to 360lbf-ft. Most probably with improved driveability but a small dent in fuel consumption and emissions compared with standard. Very impressive.! I'm looking forward to seeing the full spec for the flat-4 turbo engine and how Porsche have packaged the intercooler for the mid-engine location, which is more challenging than that for the 991-series cars where there's an external engine cover and also where plenty of experience has been gained with the Turbo in watercooled installations. Jeff

 

[jhrfc]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead There's a lot of whinging from the N/A enthusiasts lobby that tubocharging will degrade the marque but I suspect that Porsche will weather the criticism easily. After all, apart from enthusiasts like ourselves, how many Porsche sportscar buyers really know [or care?] what's under the bonnet? Jeff

Can i break to you gently that the engines are in the back Seriously, I think the change form NA to turbo will affect the character of the car, a lot more than Air to water cooled. Don't get me wrong turbos can be great, i loved my scooby back in the day, but it is a different feel to a NA. Can I start to get excited my late model NA 2.7 DFI, will become a collectors classic? Cheers Jon

 

[Motorhead]

Actually Jon....they're in the middle on our cars. Or hadn't you noticed? Yes, the sound and power delivery of the turbo engines will be very different, but will it stop people from buying Porsches? I doubt it, and when N/A engines become a rarity rather than the norm, like you we're all hoping that our cars will become classics, but don't hold your breath. Mind you, it's interesting to see that Mazda are bucking the trend with the new MX5 and sticking with N/A engines, so there's still hope. Jeff

 

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Whilst I am sure the transition remains about emissions and economy I wonder how true Rohl's comments are when he described the engine note similar to Beetle? I am sure the sound will be tuned, but does it bode well when somebody as respected as he is seems amused by it all.

 

[Motorhead]

Chris, Manufacturers are working very hard to create an interior and exterior "sound quality" consistent with their marque values and targets, and Porsche are no different [ http://articles.sae.org/10374/ ]. I haven't seen Rohrl's comments but you can be sure that the Porsche Noise and Vibration Dept. have been focused on making the new turbo engines meet the marque's aspirations. We'll have to wait a little while though to see if they've been successful. Jeff

 

[Chris_in_the_UK]

I understand the drivers Jeff, just do not like the idea of created or synthesised sounds. Sad direction when one is a petrolhead.....

ORIGINAL: Motorhead Chris, Manufacturers are working very hard to create an interior and exterior "sound quality" consistent with their marque values and targets, and Porsche are no different [ http://articles.sae.org/10374/ ]. I haven't seen Rohrl's comments but you can be sure that the Porsche Noise and Vibration Dept. have been focused on making the new turbo engines meet the marque's aspirations. We'll have to wait a little while though to see if they've been successful. Jeff

 

[Motorhead]

I'm with you on that Chris, but cars - even sportscars - have become so refined these days that maufacturers have been forced to address this by "enhancing" the sound in the cabin. Some makers have been more successful than others, with Renault and BMW playing synthesised, harmonically-related sounds through the speakers, which I think is going too far. At least Porsche are using actual intake sounds and the driver can activate the system via the Sport button for a more sporting sound if desired. Jeff

 

[daro911]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead I'm with you on that Chris, but cars - even sportscars - have become so refined these days that maufacturers have been forced to address this by "enhancing" the sound in the cabin. Some makers have been more successful than others, with Renault and BMW playing synthesised, harmonically-related sounds through the speakers, which I think is going too far. At least Porsche are using actual intake sounds and the driver can activate the system via the Sport button for a more sporting sound if desired. Jeff

Porsche need to employ the sound man who did the F Types, Astons or Ferraris [] In nearly 4 decades of Porsche motoring when it came to making the right music out the exhaust Porsche have never been where they should have been IMO especially as I am a sucker for a sports exhaust soundtrack as opposed the hi fi from the stereo [&o]

 

[Motorhead]

Rob, I have to declare an interest here. I was for many years involved in vehicle NVH consultancy and more latterly in sound quality engineering, a technology that was taken onboard by Jaguar at a very early stage of its development, which certainly shows in their current product lines. The technology has now been embraced by companies such as Ford US, Ferrari and Lamborghini, to name but a few. Here's an example of the NVH Vehicle Simulator we developed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMAnJTbvAgE&feature=youtu.be Unfortunately Porsche wasn't amongst our customers, although it was demonstrated to them. Jeff

 

[ralphmusic]

Jeff, I have a wide range of sound simulations and here are a few: In Batak, ngong, ngooongngng ... In Catalan, rum, rumm In Czech, brmmm brmmm In Danish, vrum vrum, brum brum, nøn nøn In Dutch, broem, vroem In English, vroom vroom, broom broom In Finnish, vruum vruum, bruum bruum, prööm prööm (spoken) In French, vroum vroum In German, brumm brumm, wrumm wrumm In Italian, brum brum In Hungarian, brum brumm In Korean, bureung bureung 부릉부릉 In Polish, brym brym, brum brum In Portuguese, vruum vruum In Romanian, vrum vrum In Spanish, run run In Swedish, brum brum In Thai bruen bruen บรึ๊น บรึ๊น In Turkish, vrum vrum (truck), han han (car) In Vietnamese, bờ rừm I think one of the issues is that V8 and V12's inherently sound a lot better than a flat six.

 

[ralphmusic]

ORIGINAL: Motorhead ......I was for many years involved in vehicle NVH consultancy and more latterly in sound quality engineering, a technology that was taken onboard by Jaguar at a very early stage of its development, which certainly shows in their current product lines. The technology has now been embraced by companies such as Ford US, Ferrari and Lamborghini, to name but a few. Jeff

Ah... No where near as hands on but we acquired nCode in 2005 and I sold it to Spectris/HBM in 2008. Very interesting sensor technologies and software to speed up development and design of ground vehicles from Harley Davidson motor cycles to cars (Ford, GM, VAG, PSA, Honda, Jaguar etc) through to main battle tanks (can't say who).

 

[Motorhead]

Bit of a coincidence Ralph. B&K - to whom we sold the rights for the vehicle simulator - are part of the Spectris Group and we also used HBM transducers for some applications; their force transducers I think. The full vehicle simulator requires the measurement of a significant amount of phase-related data such as engine rpm, interior noise at the seat positions, intake and exhaust noise, tyre noise [in the wheel arches], triaxial acceleration at the body-side of engine, exhaust and suspension mount positions as well as at the driver's backside, heel-point and steering wheel rim. In addition, the body's acoustic sensitivity at all powertrain and suspension attachment points has to be measured. Thank goodness for the availabiltiy of modern multi-channel data acquisition systems and super-fast laptops. It wasn't always like that..! Incidentally, Harley Davidson were also an early adopter of the technology and it's become an essential part of their product development cycle. Have to agree with you on the V8 and V12 versus flat-6 sound. But then you can also get into a discussion about flat-plane versus cross-plane cranks and their different sound characteristics. Jeff