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Geo set up

u63af

New member
Afternoon guys,

I have just rebushed the whole car, its on Gaz golds.

Anyone got details on geo set up ideally for a fast road use with occasional track day? (camber, caster etc)

Also when setting up height of car is it meant to be sloped towards the front.

IT will be going in to be corner weighted and alligned but want to get approx height first.
 
Hi,
I can't give you any definitive answers - I'm still experimenting myself. Also, levels of acceptable compromise tend to be rather subjective.

I run:
KW v3 with 25.5 rear torsion bars, 26.8mm fr ARB, 19mm 3-way rr ARB.

My experience from trying different settings on my 944 is as follows:

Ride Height/Pitch:

Height: Lowest end of the factory settings for a 968 with M030.
- Front caster bolt face below wheel center = 157mm
- Rear torsion bar ctr below wheel center = -7mm (i.e. above wheel ctr)
This is the lowest set by the factory for cars with alu wishbones (to my knowledge), so should hopefully be ball-joint and bump steer freindly. I also run 205/50/15 track tyres - These drop the ride height by an extra 25mm on top of the above settings.

Pitch: Flat (spirit level on the sills - gave 50:50 corner weighting diagonally across the axles with little adjustment)
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Toe:

Front - parallel to slight toe in (typical for most rwd cars I think...)
The opposite would be the case for a fwd car (parallel to slight toe out), as the body imparts a rearward thrust trying to toe the wheels in. But a sports car like the 944 is reasonably tightly bushed, so front toe-change under load should be relatively small.

Rear - parallel
Or alternatively, if you don't mind sacrificing sharp turn-in for a stable rear and some mild scrub, opting for some toe-in may help to counter the tendency of the vw IRS to toe-out under load (so several people have commented to me).
--------------------------------

Camber:

1-2° negative on both axles

For ultimate grip the ideal would be to set the angle such that in the hardest turns the tyre contact patch remains square to the road surface. With a normal road tyre this could be around 2°neg, rising to as much as 3-5° for stickies.
Taking this approach feels great on-track when the car is loaded-up. In the middle of the corner, with the car taking a set, it feels a bit like there is an imaginary hand helping to hold the car on line.
The downside I found is when the car returns to the road and much lower cornering forces and more subtle steering inputs are employed. Go too mad on the camber here and you may find the steering a little too light and vague around the straight ahead. Also the car will be inclined to dart around with an alarming eagerness. This can be particularly disconcerting at speed on the motorway "" while sneezing, for example[&o].
--------------------------------

Caster:

3-4°

If you can stand heavier steering around town, I found increasing the caster to be an effective way of achieving a road/track compromise without extreme camber angles. More caster angle effectively increases the rise in negative camber due to steering angle - thus camber is there when you need it, allowing a lower cambersetting.
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A milder approach - and perhaps a good starting point if you are using road tyres - would be to select the more sporting end of the factory settings for camber and caster. This should retain nice road manners combined with good performance for occasional track action.


924_44_FactoryGeo.jpg



 
Jonny, thanks for the data, its interesting as my car is "just not right" especially across the camber change on the crest of the road with fully boost in 3rd, and it causes me concern in the wet especially. Having said that its great when loaded up mid bend, its reasonable in crosswinds. It is heavy as you describe around town. I enquired with COG but no reply, obviously too busy.
All comparisons are relative to another standard 951 M030, which is totally reassuring in the camber crossover, it is a standard setup, but i would admit less sharp to turn in. I prefer to drive around the turn in than the cross camber instabiliy, I always thought the camber was wrong for me, and your "heavy" description is bang on, but I dont understand the camber area of steering geometry.
What is it, and how do I adjust it?
thanks in anticipation, and sorry for the quiz.
George
944t
PS the bushes are all good, Toyo's are great, 36psi all round, M030 adjusted equally on both cars, ie - its a geometry issue.
 
Post #2 looks interesting, but Im too tired to read it now.

I will add though, that Porsche intended the sills to be level when designing the car: they only raised the rear in order to meet American federal bumper height requirements.

In summary: no, the car shouldnt 'sloped towards the front'.


Simon
 

ORIGINAL: 944 man

Post #2 looks interesting, but Im too tired to read it now.

I will add though, that Porsche intended the sills to be level when designing the car: they only raised the rear in order to meet American federal bumper height requirements.

In summary: no, the car shouldnt 'sloped towards the front'.


Simon

That all depends how you want it to handle..
If its a race bred car then having the front slightly lower than the rear has its advantages...
If its a raod car then level or slightly lower at the back helps...
 

ORIGINAL: u63af

Afternoon guys,

I have just rebushed the whole car, its on Gaz golds.

Anyone got details on geo set up ideally for a fast road use with occasional track day? (camber, caster etc)

Also when setting up height of car is it meant to be sloped towards the front.

IT will be going in to be corner weighted and alligned but want to get approx height first.

Have you used (changed for) 968 front caster bushes - far less rubber than standard 944

Also torsion bar mount rubbers can be split
 
Agreed, somewhere between 5mm and 15mm nose down for full on track performance. Personal preference will to some extent dictate just how much.

Personally I prefer the way the car handles with less castor, something ppl forget on these cars is that turning round the adjuster also alters the trail between the wishbone and the strut. This alters how the front rolls when entering a corner and makes the car less good at riding bumps. Believe it or not but even on a full race car getting the thing to ride bumps well (as in really well when on the grip limit) is a much bigger challenge then coming up with a balanced geo setup.

If you have adjustable dampers use them, don't fall into the trap of trying to endlessly tune the car with geo.

If you need more camber due to wearing the outside of the tyres add more camber.

If the car is loose from the back end when braking heavily add some rear toe in or just brake less hard (not as daft as it sounds).

I could go on and on and on [:D] but I think for everyone you need to learn what works for you from your own experience.
 
Jonny, thanks for the data, its interesting as my car is "just not right" especially across the camber change on the crest of the road with fully boost in 3rd, and it causes me concern in the wet especially. Having said that its great when loaded up mid bend, its reasonable in crosswinds. It is heavy as you describe around town. I enquired with COG but no reply, obviously too busy.
All comparisons are relative to another standard 951 M030, which is totally reassuring in the camber crossover, it is a standard setup, but i would admit less sharp to turn in. I prefer to drive around the turn in than the cross camber instabiliy, I always thought the camber was wrong for me, and your "heavy" description is bang on, but I dont understand the camber area of steering geometry.
What is it, and how do I adjust it?

A good start would be to book the car in for an alignment check (booking both in would be even more interesting...). I think it has been mentioned here recently that some places offer free checks.

Camber

Camber.png
Adjcamber.png


I guess the first thing would be to separate out road camber and wheel camber.

Most road cars will have only small amounts <1° of wheel camber from the factory, particularly on the front axle. There are several reasons for this; one being tyre wear, another is due to the fact that wheel camber creates a thrust force roughly proportional to the amount of angle or lean of the wheel and tyre.

This is fine if you are driving a perfectly straight line, on a perfectly flat road, as the forces from each tyre effectively cancel each other out. It is also great if the car is heavily loaded in a turn, as the outer tyre thrust contributes to the centrifugal force generated.

The light or skittish effect in terms of steering feel and ability of the car to correctly follow a defined path, occurs when one of the tyres becomes less loaded than the other, this could be due to a steering input, bumps, or as you mention road camber.

For racing, more subtle effects are less of a concern compared with outright cornering grip. Limiting factors for camber on race (and to a certain extent) road cars tends be related to acceleration and braking where less camber is more desirable for good grip as a larger tyre contact patch is presented to the road. Like everything it is of course a compromise. For example, last weekend in Montreal (big straights, big stops) the F1 cars would be running less camber than say a track like Barcelona with it's with long high speed corners.

MillikenMX1CamberCar1960.jpg

Milliken MX1- An example of extreme negative camber


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Caster

Caster.png
Caster-1.jpg


Castor is the angle of the steering axis from vertical when measured along the longitudinal axis of the car.

It affects many things but the increase in steering weight, mentioned in the above post, is caused by the fact that with increasing caster angles the additional torque required through the steering column is working to lift the car body on its suspension.

CWwhBqG2B5UYPeLgZjKuLa.jpg

Chopper Bike - Example of extreme caster
 
Jonny,
Thanks for the info and guide as to how to adjust camber and castor. Do you have a guide as to how to do toe, rear camber and rear toe?
 
On my coupe I ran -1.5 degrees on the rear neg 0.75 on the front. The rears wore evenly on the road and track the fronts wore the outside on the track the insides on the road. Front camber was maxed but I think I will dial it back next time. I think toe was zero rear and slightly in on the front.
Worked for me as road biased with occasional track usage.
Tony
 

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