Honest John and the 993
- Thread starter Taverner
- Start date
Well, he may be honest but he is not knowledgeable about this car. The 996 does not suffer from oil surge except at racing G force levels. It is neither wet sumped, nor dry, but some where in the middle, with a large oil reservoir.
While not excusing Porsche for any designed-in problems, most people know my efforts in this area, it is important to keep in proportion.
A problem RMS can be changed at not a high cost - £400 to £900 (depending whether by an independent or OPC), or if done at same time as changing the clutch, then only £20.
Taking out a Porsche extended warranty would cover most mechanical problems including RMS.
The choice between a 993 and a 996 is very personal and has been discussed at length on a recent thread. Personally, I find the 993 very dated to look at and this is important to me.
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Peter,
What are the running costs for the 993? I am not running a competition vs the 996 but it may be interesting to know the service and replacement costs for aging cars. I do remember that OPC service costs were reduced with the 996 and Boxster.
Btw I dont understand why you say these costs are high for most people, surely they are not for people who want to run a car costing £60-70,000 when new?
What are the running costs for the 993? I am not running a competition vs the 996 but it may be interesting to know the service and replacement costs for aging cars. I do remember that OPC service costs were reduced with the 996 and Boxster.
Btw I dont understand why you say these costs are high for most people, surely they are not for people who want to run a car costing £60-70,000 when new?
Guest
New member
Various issues arising from your post, Nic.
993s are old cars now, but the engines seem to have no inherent weaknesses. With good, regular maintenance, major failures are extremely rare and no particular problem crops up with any regularity.
One would have to be blind to the truth that the RMS is an acknowledged weakness in water-cooled engines. From what I understand it is caused by a design and/or manufacturing fault.
There is also the issue of total engine failures, the causes of which are unclear (to me at any rate), although I understand that one is cylinder liner cracking.
Expensive cars ought to be reliable: it is a reasonable benefit for customers in return for a large financial outlay. High initial purchase price need not inevitably mean high servicing/maintenance costs "" though most people are prepared to accept higher costs than with run-of-the-mill cars.
Modern engines, given 100 years-plus of internal combustion unit development, ought to be HIGHLY reliable. The great majority are. The norm for warranty periods is three years, sometimes with unlimited mileage.
Where undue failures occur, most manufacturers behave reasonably "" albeit after a bit of customer pressure "" by standing repair costs or making goodwill payments if the vehicle is out of warranty.
(However, despite three-year warranties and the existence of a certain amount of goodwill it is advisable not to take extended servicing schedules too seriously, especially when it comes to changing oil. Future 997/987 owners should take note.)
Porsche can only bring itself to offer a two-year warranty. The firm appears consistently to have been inclined to dodge the water-cooled engine problem, resisting warranty claims, refusing to make goodwill payments, being generally unhelpful and brushing the matter under the carpet. This is not the behaviour of a brand that one can respect or trust.
The 993 in particular is a supercar "" and a Porsche "" that you don't have to be super-rich to own and run. And my 993 cost £60K new ten years ago. The same might apply to the 996 "" although there is a much bigger financial risk. £700+ per annum for a warranty? I don't think so.
993s are old cars now, but the engines seem to have no inherent weaknesses. With good, regular maintenance, major failures are extremely rare and no particular problem crops up with any regularity.
One would have to be blind to the truth that the RMS is an acknowledged weakness in water-cooled engines. From what I understand it is caused by a design and/or manufacturing fault.
There is also the issue of total engine failures, the causes of which are unclear (to me at any rate), although I understand that one is cylinder liner cracking.
Expensive cars ought to be reliable: it is a reasonable benefit for customers in return for a large financial outlay. High initial purchase price need not inevitably mean high servicing/maintenance costs "" though most people are prepared to accept higher costs than with run-of-the-mill cars.
Modern engines, given 100 years-plus of internal combustion unit development, ought to be HIGHLY reliable. The great majority are. The norm for warranty periods is three years, sometimes with unlimited mileage.
Where undue failures occur, most manufacturers behave reasonably "" albeit after a bit of customer pressure "" by standing repair costs or making goodwill payments if the vehicle is out of warranty.
(However, despite three-year warranties and the existence of a certain amount of goodwill it is advisable not to take extended servicing schedules too seriously, especially when it comes to changing oil. Future 997/987 owners should take note.)
Porsche can only bring itself to offer a two-year warranty. The firm appears consistently to have been inclined to dodge the water-cooled engine problem, resisting warranty claims, refusing to make goodwill payments, being generally unhelpful and brushing the matter under the carpet. This is not the behaviour of a brand that one can respect or trust.
The 993 in particular is a supercar "" and a Porsche "" that you don't have to be super-rich to own and run. And my 993 cost £60K new ten years ago. The same might apply to the 996 "" although there is a much bigger financial risk. £700+ per annum for a warranty? I don't think so.
Peter,
as I organise the RMS Survey for the Club, and "negotiated" with Porsche on this topic, I am well informed on this subject. I am no apologist for Porsche, but don't wish people to be put off the cars either.
I am glad you like your 993 so much, they are very good cars with many components at the end of a long development cycle. And, of course, they have solid residuals, so make financial sense. With newish cars, the major cost is depreciation, this is the price you pay to have a new or more modern vehicle. Annual depreciation, in the first four years dwarfs all maintenance costs.
Now, what I don't know is what a 993 owner pays for the various maintenance services. Can you help here please? Is there any saving with a 996?
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New member
What I meant to say in my previous post is that 996 Turbos, GT2s and GT3s DON'T have RMS problems or, as far as I am aware, any reputation for out-of-course engine failure. To me this strengthens the argument against the 'cooking' 996 motor.
As I'm relatively new to 993 ownership I can't comment in detail on 993 maintenance costs. (I'm sure Maurice can, though.) But I believe that routine 996 attention is cheaper than for a 993. The issue for me, and I suggest others like me, who would otherwise be keen on 996 ownership, is the risk of a big, unavoidable bill. And when the cause is something that really should have been sorted long ago, and addressed more helpfully by the manufacturer, it's hard to stomach.
Your point about depreciation is, of course, very valid. As Honest John said, late 993 values are holding up rather better than those of early 996s. Supply/demand balance. And the demand maybe influenced by the 996's mechanical reputation.
I'm very interested in getting a factual, statistically based view of the RMS problem. What are the results of the RMS survey? Do poit me in the direction of the relevant web page here, if appropriate.
As I'm relatively new to 993 ownership I can't comment in detail on 993 maintenance costs. (I'm sure Maurice can, though.) But I believe that routine 996 attention is cheaper than for a 993. The issue for me, and I suggest others like me, who would otherwise be keen on 996 ownership, is the risk of a big, unavoidable bill. And when the cause is something that really should have been sorted long ago, and addressed more helpfully by the manufacturer, it's hard to stomach.
Your point about depreciation is, of course, very valid. As Honest John said, late 993 values are holding up rather better than those of early 996s. Supply/demand balance. And the demand maybe influenced by the 996's mechanical reputation.
I'm very interested in getting a factual, statistically based view of the RMS problem. What are the results of the RMS survey? Do poit me in the direction of the relevant web page here, if appropriate.
Michael Downing
New member
Honest John is an expert.
In cheap cars from the far east, that is.
In cheap cars from the far east, that is.
Maurice ,
thank you for sample service costs - look very reasonable.
Peter,
I reported on the RMS survey results last month on the Forum thread, they make interesting reading, but we need to keep this going for some years to come:
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=102495&mpage=4&key=RMS
I am busy all day on the Club's new system, so limited time today
thank you for sample service costs - look very reasonable.
Peter,
I reported on the RMS survey results last month on the Forum thread, they make interesting reading, but we need to keep this going for some years to come:
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=102495&mpage=4&key=RMS
I am busy all day on the Club's new system, so limited time today
stuart tanner
Member
Maurice, I've a 993 Targa, its currently at Porsche centre Swindon for its so say major 48k service. The car has covered 46k, have been quoted from memory £1250 I think, said would discount the end bill as an older car. Do we still get a further discount on top being a member of porsche club. Im sure they will find some othe work that is bound to be needed. Hope to get the car back later this morning. [
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