How much should it cost

charlesm17x · Sep 9, 2014

Im looking to replace all belts rollers, tentioners, idlers , water pump and front oil seals on my 944 8v, How much would you say a decent indie would charge for all the above i know its not going to be cheap but id like a ball park guesstimate.

Thanks

Diver944 · Sep 9, 2014

I'm going to guess you wouldn't get much change from £1000. I haven't surveyed all the parts websites recently but from memory the pump will be circa £350, the belts and rollers £200 and the seals about £50, then add in 5 or 6 hours labour at approx £80 an hour

Craigybaby · Sep 9, 2014

Just for reference this is what jct600 quoted me a couple of weeks ago

· Cambelt + balance Belt £736.20inc vat fitted.
· Cam chain £360.84inc vat fitted.
· Water pump £1,122.43inc vat fitted.

pauljmcnulty · Sep 9, 2014

It's all "while you're in there" work, so you're pretty much adding parts costs to a standard belt service.

My previous specialist (in the south east, and pretty expensive) listed about £400 for the belts on the lux. Add pulleys and oil seals on their prices and that's another £500 or so, and water pumps seem to vary between £200 bought from the continent, to over £300 here.

George Elliott · Sep 9, 2014

180 quid (incl' vat) for parts from Promax and 3 hours DIY work. Job done

If I was presented with £80 / hour or £1000 to change the belts on a 944, John McEnroe's whining expression springs to mind....

Would £180 for parts and £100 for labour, and £100 for profit not be fair?

George
944t

ChasR · Sep 9, 2014

Bear in mind that even generic independant garages don't seem to charge less than £40/hr these days thanks to rising business rates. £50 seems more like the mark.

Saying that, some of those prices made me hold my breath! £1k does sound about right for changing the belt along with the seals though (a few of them can be tricky to change as well as time consuming).

pauljmcnulty · Sep 9, 2014

The local lock-up garage I use for the van are now £65 plus VAT per hour. Specialists in any marque must be worth more than that!

George, I just can't see how you can replace all belts rollers, tentioners, idlers , water pump and front oil seals on a 944 for £180 inc. VAT from Promax, plus 3 hours DIY? That makes no sense at all to me. [8|]

Next belt service, I'll pay you to do all that for £180 inc. VAT, plus 3 hours at, say, £200 per hour? You'd need to warranty it, of course, as garages do, but I'd still be quids in. [

]

James Beaumont · Sep 10, 2014

I did mine and it was not far off £1000 all in doing it my self

zcacogp · Sep 10, 2014

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
George, I just can't see how you can replace all belts rollers, tentioners, idlers , water pump and front oil seals on a 944 for £180 inc. VAT from Promax, plus 3 hours DIY? That makes no sense at all to me. [8|]

I suspect that the £180 quoted is just for belts; it doesn't count the seals or pump.

http://www.promaxmotorsport.co.uk/products/22-belts-rollers-kit-944-and-944-turbo-early-pre-86.aspx

Oli.

DavidL · Sep 10, 2014

£180 + labour is a bit daft I'm afraid.
The base price will be the belt change price as this is where the labour is. The rest are parts and minimal labour on top as its already apart.
The water pump will be £250 at a guess but I don't know about rollers and seals.
It will easily approach £1000 at somewhere you would trust.

ETA
OE water pump at ECP is 251
http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Porsche_944_2.5_1984/p/car-parts/car-cooling-parts-and-car-heating/cooling/water-pump-gasket/?201330042&1&255be7293ca3ecf50d0a11e3541aa64813d1f3a2&000366

there is a pattern part at 114.

and another 75 for rollers.

BenEngland · Sep 10, 2014

Had the same work carried out by my local Indie back in March this year.
They fitted a genuine Porsche exchange water pump, (£285 + Vat), belts & two off tensioner rollers , 1 off balance shaft oil seal & replacement small thermostat .
Additionally they had to drill out one off snapped water pump bolt, which probably added an extra hour or so labour to the bill.

Labour £390.00, Parts £508.00 All plus Vat

I try and do as much as I can myself but sometimes its easier to let the professionals do the work as they have all the kit to hand

Ash944 · Sep 10, 2014

I had mine done beginning of the year was 1200 but I had a steering rack rebuild as well

pauljmcnulty · Sep 10, 2014

I think there's a concensus that the answer to the OP's question is about a grand? [8|]

There's always a huge issue with people who can DIY challenging garage rates. It might seem excessive to be charging £80 per hour, but remember they have rent, rates, insurances, staff costs, pensions, environmental disposal charges, advertising, any number of costs before they earn a penny. They have to use proper parts in order to offer a warranty, and have to add 20% to your bill every time.

3 hours on your drive for a belt change, if you're an expert with all the tools and don't charge, does make garage costs seem excessive, but I think it's an unfair comparison. Some of us have no option: mine is for health reasons an total lack of skills and tools, others might work long hours, it's just not possible for us all to be able to whack out a belt change on a 944 at the weekend, let alone have the skills not to break it!

Ewan · Sep 10, 2014

If you live in the south, I'd say a grand plus Vat. If you live in the north, I'd say a grand inc Vat. If you live in Liverpool, you probably don't even bother about Vat. (I think it was something like this that Jack Straw said whilst being Home Secretary).

Monkeythree · Sep 10, 2014

Changing the belts can seem like a daunting prospect but I would say it's actually well within reach for most owners to DIY. It really is a nut and bolt job and not difficult at all. Porsche put timing marks on everything so you would have to try really hard to ferk up the timing and the only tools you need are a socket set, a set of spanners and a torque wrench (admittedly I didn't have a 24mm deep socket for the crank bolt and had to buy one!).

When i get back to the UK next summer i will happily hold a belt changing seminar where I do the belts for someone and anyone who is interested can come along and watch as I take everyone through the steps.

George Elliott · Sep 10, 2014

I suspect that the £180 quoted is just for belts; it doesn't count the seals or pump.

Correct

Paul, I notice a comfort with high service costs, where customers who have never done the job listen to the patter - genuine parts guff and such like, and feel that because they have paid so dearly it must be a good job. Also FSH or FOPCSH in the service book. Warranty is another example of bamboozling the gullible, Porsches warranty cover reputation is well known so I wont bother with details. We live too far apart for me to change your belts, but given time to do it i would not charge you anything - mates rates are for these simple jobs.

(When the Mk2 16v GTI was current, I asked for a quote for a cambelt change at the VAG stealers, done the 8v many times, but not being familiar with the 16v. Asked the Service manager to use a Genuine belt, "always do patter etc" week later job done. I looked at the cam belt cover and wondered, and curiosity got the better of me....removed the cover........AC Delco Cambelt [

]. Back to the stealers, mistake Yeah)

M3 understands this - but those who don't are being fleeced which is sad.

George
944t

ChasR · Sep 11, 2014

ORIGINAL: George Elliott

I suspect that the £180 quoted is just for belts; it doesn't count the seals or pump.

Click to expand...

Correct

(When the Mk2 16v GTI was current, I asked for a quote for a cambelt change at the VAG stealers, done the 8v many times, but not being familiar with the 16v. Asked the Service manager to use a Genuine belt, "always do patter etc" week later job done. I looked at the cam belt cover and wondered, and curiosity got the better of me....removed the cover........AC Delco Cambelt []. Back to the stealers, mistake Yeah)

M3 understands this - but those who don't are being fleeced which is sad.

George
944t

IMHO that is a very unfair comparison and there is plenty of evidence to the contrary

With Pug XU Series engines Peugeot use a Dayco belt I admit. The difference between GSF and the stealers? Peugeot use one with a different part no. which is thicker and wider (it covers more of the sprocket teeth). I know from basic knowledge which is likely to last longer.

With my Alfa 147 I once owned I fitted a Lemforder (a Genuine OE manufacturer) arm on, only for it to fail in 10k despite me adhering to torque settings and manufacturer installation. Upon telling a known Alfa specialist in the Midlands he near enough laughed in my face. In his experience only poly bushes or TRW/Genuine Alfa items got any mileage out of them. Considering the original arm (stamped the same date as the car) had 70k on it I would say that he had a point.

That is before I get to Ford TDCIs which are meant to be so problematic. Bosch make two fuel filters, one has an E for Economy (in a bad way; it does not filter crap as well), and one does not. You can already guess what many motor factors are all to happy to sell as an 'OE part'. Yes it is the 'same part' sold by the dealers with you making a saving, but are you really after a new fuel pump, injectors, and fuel lines (those on the dealer parts only changed when necessary seem to be fine despite higher mileages).

That is before I get to the Pug drop links on my 205 which I changed only 2 years ago/1,000 miles ago. The drop links would have failed the MOT I took it in for today thanks to all four balljoint boots being completely split (what a waste of money (and time) those drop links were).

You have probably got my point

. Are people getting fleeced? Absolutely...

Monkeythree · Sep 11, 2014

I think we need to be careful not to associate all outsourcing to "getting fleeced". There are plenty of jobs on 944's which as Paul pointed out, owners either don't want to do, can't do for one reason or another etc etc. and taking the car to have it done is the right thing for that owner at that time.

My point on the belts was that I believe 944 belts hold a "fear factor" for many owners and therefore many get done by garages. I just wanted to raise awareness that there is no hoodoo or witchcraft involved with this job and i firmly believe that with a bit of confidence boosting, many owners could manage this task themselves. If you can change a spark plug, you can change the belts on a 944!

zcacogp · Sep 11, 2014

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty
There's always a huge issue with people who can DIY challenging garage rates. It might seem excessive to be charging £80 per hour, but remember they have rent, rates, insurances, staff costs, pensions, environmental disposal charges, advertising, any number of costs before they earn a penny. They have to use proper parts in order to offer a warranty, and have to add 20% to your bill every time.

3 hours on your drive for a belt change, if you're an expert with all the tools and don't charge, does make garage costs seem excessive, but I think it's an unfair comparison. Some of us have no option: mine is for health reasons an total lack of skills and tools, others might work long hours, it's just not possible for us all to be able to whack out a belt change on a 944 at the weekend, let alone have the skills not to break it!

This is undoubtedly true, but DIY maintenance is what keeps many 944's on the road. If I had to pay someone else every time a spanner needed twirling on my car I'd have sold it many years back as the cost of maintenance would comfortably exceed the value of the car over a 2 or 3 year period. It's the huge cost of having clutches changed and brakes rebuilt (both simple but long jobs) that write off 944's. I agree that the cost of jobs should be discussed in terms of cost of parts AND time taken, but even that is a bit vague; what may take me four hours could be done by a more skilled person in two, and a garage may take even less.

ORIGINAL: Monkeythree
My point on the belts was that I believe 944 belts hold a "fear factor" for many owners and therefore many get done by garages. I just wanted to raise awareness that there is no hoodoo or witchcraft involved with this job and i firmly believe that with a bit of confidence boosting, many owners could manage this task themselves. If you can change a spark plug, you can change the belts on a 944!

Now that is VERY true; I paid to have the belts changed on my S2 shortly after I bought it as there was a notion on this forum that it was some kind of dark art. It's not; it's an easy job that most DIY'ers could manage. It's slightly harder than the same job on a Golf, but not much. The parts are very expensive (certainly when compared with Golf parts) but, given a reasonable socket set and a torque wrench, you should be able to do it in a couple of hours on your drive.

Oli.

bighead · Sep 11, 2014

ORIGINAL: Monkeythree

I think we need to be careful not to associate all outsourcing to "getting fleeced". There are plenty of jobs on 944's which as Paul pointed out, owners either don't want to do, can't do for one reason or another etc etc. and taking the car to have it done is the right thing for that owner at that time.

My point on the belts was that I believe 944 belts hold a "fear factor" for many owners and therefore many get done by garages. I just wanted to raise awareness that there is no hoodoo or witchcraft involved with this job and i firmly believe that with a bit of confidence boosting, many owners could manage this task themselves. If you can change a spark plug, you can change the belts on a 944!

we need a DIY write up with pics please