I was never too good at geometry....

JuliusF · Oct 16, 2015

Of course, today brings a new challenge. Had my wheel alignment done yesterday, got home, filing the papers and noticed the machine settings they had loaded said year 1998/type 993 - uh-oh!
Queried it PDQ with the tyre fitter (who are pretty good usually - a pro tyre dealer actually so they do all sorts of track circles as well) - they checked it, called me back said they checked the settings for the 996, and for that model year(!) the settings for the 993 and the 996 are one and the same. Eh?
Now I'm not the brightest penny in the box, but even I know the cars are different shapes and chassis on the face of it I woudl have thought completely different setups - I can't see that the settings for track, camber and toe could be the same, but I wondered if anyone else had ever encountered this issue?
Could it be its just an average setting on a non Porsche specific machine.
Alternatively does anybody (Richard H!) know what the settings are supposed to be please so I can compare the readout?
My thanks.

Motorhead · Oct 16, 2015

Jules,

I'm sure Richard will be able to provide the correct values but this might be useful for starters.

Jeff

Richard_Hamilton · Oct 16, 2015

993 Values for comparison:

Azyman · Oct 16, 2015

I had my 996 tt 2003 done at Jazz for fast road setting
i could Send you the settings to compare. Would need to be via email

JuliusF · Oct 18, 2015

Interesting - not much difference in the rear wheels at all, so I think I can assume those are OK!
I wonder am I reading the rest of these correctly?
Front toe - model wise I think should be comparable - my final results are .04 degrees left .03 degrees right
Front camber looks like the main difference - I've got -0.2 degrees and -0.45 degrees (not seconds) - that seems quite a big difference to what it should be either for the 993 or 996 so I'm left scratching my head here!
Front caster 5.33 degrees both sides - unchanged during the setup process as far as I can see.
I've attached a scan of the process - any further comments welcome.

Thanks!

J

vitesse · Oct 18, 2015

Well that looks a puzzle-initially,although some individual wheel readings are out,the car still steers straight ahead-after alignment-individual wheels are "green centred" but rears seem in the "red" on camber & car no longer steers straight ahead.
In my experience ,come what may,the car should be set up to always steer straight ahead,otherwise it's "crabbing"

Richard_Hamilton · Oct 18, 2015

Looks like a poor alignment job to me. About the only thing they have got right is the front toe. The rest is a mix of poor and dreadful - too many values out of range to be acceptable. I would take it back, or go elsewhere.

JuliusF · Oct 19, 2015

I think the latter - disappointing as they supposedly have a good reputation, and their service on tyres has been good - simply out of their depth I suspect.

I've heard Centre Gravity up near Coventry are pretty good on 996's so i think I'll give them a go as I have to go that way on another matter.

Thanks to all for the input.

J

paulus · Oct 19, 2015

It might be daft question - but it was supposed to be a full suspension geometry check not just front wheel alignment / tracking ?

A tyre supplier local to me offered to do a free alignment check on our Discovery before fitting new tyres.
They generated a report in an identical layout to yours very quickly & commented that the rear camber was out by a few degrees compared to spec - on each side.
I had to explain to them they were wrong - as the Disco has a solid rear axle, which was definitely not bent & the "problem" was that they hadn't fitted the equipent probes tight against the wheel rims.
They tried to explain that the equipment couldn't be wrong & I failed to get them to grasp why it had to be !
It gave the appearance of a full geometry check, but in reality wasn't!
(The tracking was OK !)

Paul
2004 996 C2 40th Anniversary
(& Land Rover Discovery 2)

JuliusF · Oct 19, 2015

I thin you are right, it was more rudimentary wheel alignment and tracking, although meant to be all 4 corners.

It wasn't enough either way - I think they did their best but the equipment/personnel had its limitations - specialist required - should have known really!

Richard_Hamilton · Oct 19, 2015

Center Gravity are excellent, but don't think you'll be able to pop in when passing. They get so busy that it is likely to be weeks rather than days if you book it in. Where are you located?

JuliusF · Oct 20, 2015

I live in Wokingham, but have family ties up that way near Tamworth, don't worry I was planning to book!

Also I pass Spires Performance on the way - http://www.spires-st.com/ - heard they are pretty good as well.

J

wibble · Oct 20, 2015

Hi Jules,

You could try Micheldever Tyres http://www.micheldever.co.uk/ (great drive down from Berks and back). They did a 4 wheel laser alignment on my 944 after a complete suspension rebuild. It was spot on afterwards, even the engineer commented how good the car handled after setup. Judging by the amount of exotica that queues up on a Saturday morning, then they seem to have a good reputation.

Someone told be that Bracknell Tyre & Battery are part of the same company (who incidentally do great deals on tyres), but not sure they have facilities on laser alignment.

Richard_Hamilton · Oct 20, 2015

Jules - Tognola Engineering at Datchet, near Slough, have the same equipment as Center Gravity and are very good.

SteveAndrews · Oct 20, 2015

JuliusF said:
I live in Wokingham, but have family ties up that way near Tamworth, don't worry I was planning to book!

Also I pass Spires Performance on the way - http://www.spires-st.com/ - heard they are pretty good as well.

J

I had my 996 set up by Matt O'Hara at Spires and he really did a good job. He was very careful to set the car up completely level before making adjustments and spent quite some time getting it all spot on. The car has handled much better afterwards. Highly recommended.

JuliusF · Oct 21, 2015

Brilliant - thanks guys! Booked in at Tognola next week.

J

SaintsPaul · Oct 27, 2015

I have just had my C2 set up by Pete at Centre Gravity and the difference is amazing.
These guys really know their stuff.

JuliusF · Oct 28, 2015

Oh yes yes yes! Peter Tognola - what a find - thanks to Richard for the tip.
In 2 hours, perfectly set up - amazing - never been so good, didn't know it could be this good!
I am lost for words (uncommon) - epic!
FYI it turns out the car was tracked OK, but the geometry of the front wheels were toed out instead of in, and the cross camber on the back was a full 13(unlucky for me!) degrees out (which to be fair was never previously adjusted) and was causing the rear end to crab - so in essence the back was fighting with the front when I went round corners making the car feel fidgety and nervous - noticeable in the wet on poor and rough road surfaces as well.
I've always thought the car was good handling generally - now I know what it means to be able to place it inch perfect on the road; did I ever give it large down the lanes on the way home......

If like me you haven't had your geometry checked by a Porsche capable specialist - get it done - honestly, I wish I had got it done the week I got the car.
Seriously gobsmacked - and have learned a lot along the way!
Next up shock absorbers and top mounts, ok for now, but will be doing at next service end of March ....P.O.R.S.C.H.E !
Heard B6's are brilliant, but B4's are affordable - and the latter are stock on the turbo I understand so I guess they can't be too bad, and I only want a standard road setup.....thoughts?
J

Richard_Hamilton · Oct 28, 2015

I knew you would be pleased with Togs. Chris Franklin once told me Peter was one of the few people who he would recommend for an alignment. Transformed my 993 when he did it.

I believe the Turbo also uses B4's, but with different valving. I put B6's on my Turbo, which were a Big improvement.

JuliusF · Oct 29, 2015

Thanks again Richard - I think its going to be a pocket money decision probably - either way I think off the shelf B4's are at least likely to be an improvement over stock at nearing 100K, and I'm hoping to upgrade to a C4S or a cab within another 2-3 years - it will be painful enough to watch the lovely exhaust disappear off down the road, let alone a full set of B6's as well.
As I say I think properly set up, stock or slightly better will be enough on a C2; I've no real plans to track it or the like.
I wonder though, would renewing the springs likely make a worthwhile difference as well?
Not really looking to lower, but I'm vaguely aware Porsche do an uprated sports kit shocks and springs for around £850 ish (have I got that right?) - but I don't want to rattle my fillings out the rest of the time....?