If Porsche made the 944 today ....

wizard · Mar 7, 2007

A thought spawned by another thread....
If Porsche were still to make the 944 today, how do you think it would have evolved in its styling and engine development.

Would the 3.0L been disposed of in favor for a mid engine V?
Would it still have he questionable front end of the 968.
Would it have got lighter?
What sort of power output?
Would it have been similar to the Caymen ?

John Sims · Mar 7, 2007

Not difficult really:-

In the days of the 944 you had the 924 - the cheapest Porsche you could buy and thus, today, The Boxster.

Then you hand the 944 (924 on steroids) thus Boxster on steroids The Cayman

911 in all its guises - no different (and no better [

])

928 - V8 font engine = Cayenne

Neil Haughey · Mar 7, 2007

If a smallish front engined sports car was on the cars it would almost certainly have an engine similar to the V6 in the cayenne bottom rung model. IMHO I can't see it happening because such a car would either compete with the 3 series or the 350Z, and I don't see Porsche making a competitive car to go head to head on price / performance with either. If anyone today was going to make a 944/968 type of car you would expect it to come from Alfa. The 8C apart I can't see Alfa bringing out anything other then mildly warm tarted up fwd euro boxes, because a modern 968 might make the Maserati GT look pointless.

DivineE · Mar 7, 2007

I just want to see a Cayman with a couple of those late technology variable vane turbo's bolted on. ALA 944 turbo now that might get me interested.

Ben

sawood12 · Mar 7, 2007

If Porsche made the 944 today they'd all have one of Jon Mitchells 3.2 ltr engines.

Neil Haughey · Mar 7, 2007

Sadly given the relationship with VAG if a 944 was to be done by Porsche / VAG it would either have the 2 litre turbo (golf gti) or the V6 (R32). In hindsight I can't see them putting one out with the cayenne engine because it would sit in an uncomfortable market sector i.e. too much power. A modern 944/968 could work as an Audi S3/TT alternative. Sounds crazy given the closeness now between Pork and VAG, but VAG are crazy enough to make cars that compete with each within their own family of brands. Porsche could do a 944/968 type car as pay back for VAG making the R8 which competes with the 911 head on. This could give Porsche a new bottom rung model around £25K, sadly this is the only way I could see it being a reality since they will never produce a 944/968 derivative that sits at a price point comparable with the Cayman. This means that front engined Pork will be poor mans pork etc. not a very happy thought. A modern 951 will never ever happen. Porsche have avoided honing the Cayman with the diff it deserves for exactly the same reasons.

sawood12 · Mar 7, 2007

This talk of a lack of LSD holding back the Cayman is a bit of a misconception. The 997 doesn't have an LSD, unless you choose the zero cost lowered passive suspension with LSD option, which I don't think many people do. Even the PASM cars don't have an LSD. The reason the Cayman isn't quite as good as a 911 is because it has a smaller and less powerful engine. However even if they gave the Cayman got the same engine as the 911 i'm not so sure it would still outgun it. Ironically the rear-engined layout of the 911 that once was considered its achilles heal has turned out to be it's greatest strength. The sheer traction the car has due to it's rear weight bias layout is simply unbeatable even against more powerful launch control equipped cars, and the Caymen would be no different. The 911 will suffer less for the lack of an LSD due to the fact it simply has more grip. The only way the Caymen would match or beat the 911 is if they moved the engine further back.

Strangely enough I think the modern front engined Ferrari's have adopted the 944 layout with the rear mounted transaxel to achive the 50/50 weight distribution so you could say that the modern 944 is in fact a Ferrari.

morris944s2john · Mar 8, 2007

I was dissapointed with the Cayman because it has no back seats (even the tiny 944 ones are useful) and NO useful boot- fold down the back seats on the 944 and thats one of the big things for me- great performance car, practical, great badge and economy (I've seen 36mpg on a run)- hence I was dissapointed with the Cayenne too.

Cayman - great badge yes, great performance car yes, economy ok, boot rubbsih.
Cayenne- great badge yes, great performance car yes, economy rubbish, boot yes huge.

I think the "new" 944 should compete not with any 3 series, but with the M3- in fact why compete? make it better.

Other than that, there is clearly a once filled gap in Porsches range so hopefully our cars will soon be appreciated again and values start to rise.

333pg333 · Mar 8, 2007

This?

morris944s2john · Mar 8, 2007

looks nice apart from the horrid headlamps that make the car look like a Fiat coupe.

No, just goes to show that the 944 shape still looks up to date even compared to modern coupes.

wizard · Mar 8, 2007

I like the look of that! it is along the line of how I imagined it would evolve in my minds eye.

The styling of the 944/968 can still hold its own and I prefer it to the Mazda RX8 which to me ,is the only similar car at this level.

John Sims · Mar 8, 2007

ORIGINAL: sawood12
........
Strangely enough I think the modern front engined Ferrari's have adopted the 944 layout with the rear mounted transaxel to achive the 50/50 weight distribution so you could say that the modern 944 is in fact a Ferrari......

Or, based on the engine in the front and transaxel at the rear, an Aston Martin V8 Vantage. [8D]

edh · Mar 8, 2007

The one thing that really lets the car down is the I-4 engine - not the performance, just the noise it makes. A 944 with a VAG V6 sounds good to me

Neil Haughey · Mar 8, 2007

It isn't because the logic you are following ignores the fact that LSD or torsen differentials don't work anything like as well in the 911 format as they do in mid engined cars. Porsche themselves when fitting an LSD in the turbo 2 gave it a very low locking ratio because thats all it needed. The story about putting an LSD in the Cayman seems to have originated from within Porsche, the statement being that an LSD would make the Cayman S 15 seconds a lap faster round the ring and thus as quick as a 997! It is hard to imagine someone just inventing this story for the fun of it. Anyway superior cornering will always make a car quicker round a track then more power IMHO.

mik_ok · Mar 8, 2007

ORIGINAL: wizard
I like the look of that! it is along the line of how I imagined it would evolve in my minds eye.

The styling of the 944/968 can still hold its own and I prefer it to the Mazda RX8 which to me ,is the only similar car at this level.

I like the look of that too.

RX8 is considerably roomier in the back than the 944/968, (which itself is much better than the likes of the mk1 and mk2 TT), and obviously scores over out-of-the-question-for-me 2-seaters such as Cayman and 350Z.

The "Hi Power" RX8 is roughly equivalent to an S2 in performance terms however. A lightly modded 944T would romp all over it. I'd expect a 944-for-the-noughties to have close to 300bhp as std, and I see no prob at all with that coming from a VAG VR6 unit.

John Sims · Mar 8, 2007

ORIGINAL: Neil Haughey

It isn't because the logic you are following ignores the fact that LSD or torsen differentials don't work anything like as well in the 911 format as they do in mid engined cars. Porsche themselves when fitting an LSD in the turbo 2 gave it a very low locking ratio because thats all it needed. The story about putting an LSD in the Cayman seems to have originated from within Porsche, the statement being that an LSD would make the Cayman S 15 seconds a lap faster round the ring and thus as quick as a 997! It is hard to imagine someone just inventing this story for the fun of it. Anyway superior cornering will always make a car quicker round a track then more power IMHO.

I agree with Neil,

Having raced a Westfield without LSD (because regs didn't allow such) and tracked 944's with and without LSD's , in my experience, you shouldn't under estimate the advantage of an LSD. The power on traction out of a corner is more than doubled as a conventional diff will send all of the power to the unweighted wheel.

I take the point that because of the rear weight of a 911 it has greater rear traction than a "normal" car and so an LSD isn't so much of an advantage to a 911. However, the Cayman isn't rear engined so would benefit as noted above.

Autocar reported the Cayman as the best handling road car they have driven.....ever....but would be even better with more power and an LSD. How good would that be then? [8D][8D][8D]

While, given the money, I would like a GT3 (who wouldn't) it is too "In ya face" to look right anywhere but on the track. The Cayman is nicely anonymous (couldn't afford a 911) and, to my mind, would be a great car for making "discrete progress" on the road as well as enjoying on the track. Because no-one expects it to be a s fast as a 911 (with a few tweaks - that Porsche AG marketing have held back) it could be a real Giant Killer.

Neil Haughey · Mar 8, 2007

Agreed John. I have to say that at first I was not to keen on the Cayman. It looked slightly not right to my eyes and the price is hard to swallow. However over time it has grown on me no end. The Z4 is beyond putrid, the 350z is starting to look not as exciting as at first glance and the leftfield choices like monaro / mustang etc. just seem to council estate, shaved head and gold chains to me. If I was in the market for a new Porsche it would most likely be a Cayman 2.7 with the sports options to include the 6 speed gearbox. However this would mean curtailing track day activities which I have no intention of doing, so I will keep to my 2 cars combined ages of 25 years and increasing.

944cabby · Mar 9, 2007

ORIGINAL: John Sims

Not difficult really:-

In the days of the 944 you had the 924 - the cheapest Porsche you could buy and thus, today, The Boxster.

Then you hand the 944 (924 on steroids) thus Boxster on steroids The Cayman

911 in all its guises - no different (and no better [])

928 - V8 font engine = Cayenne

Do you think that in 10-15 years time that the prices of boxsters will be comparable to what you can pay these days for a decent 924?

AndrewS · Mar 9, 2007

Hi All,

Interesting question. About 12 years ago, a 944 Turbo 220 was about £7,500 - £8,000 at the lower end and the 250bhp model was about £12,000 - £15,000 at the uppen end. Today a 10 year old Boxster can be had for about £12,000 and an S (oldest being 1999) for maybe £15,000.

The 924 was dropped in 1985 and replaced with the 924S; a 20 year old example now costing about £3k (for a good one) today. 10 years ago a 924S was possibly about £6k?

In ten years time a Boxster will possibly fetch about £3k -£5k for a 1997 model - becuase there are still alot around (and assuming they continue to depreciate)? That's my guess, with the S at about £5k - £6k.

So, if you scale up the prices based on inflation, they work out pretty similar (assuming my predictions are correct). However, a Boxster could become a cult car in years to come and value could go the other way - be interesting to see.

Regards,
Andrew

Neil Haughey · Mar 9, 2007

I had the figures from 10 years ago in a mega old Parkers guide, ISTR that in 1989 the S2 cost about the same as the 3.2 carrera (less than 1/2 now) and the 951 was a few K more expensive. Then the 964 came out and was more expensive again. IMHO Porsche learned a harsh lesson by making cars that sell at similar price points, and I haven't seen any evidence that they are willing to take such risks again. For this reason I can't see them making a new 944/968 the type of car we would all like to see i.e. similar performance to M3/Cayman with the practicality of a 944. Shame though because it would be one hell of a car.

Anyone remember what the really old Alfa gtv6 sounded like? That was one of the nicest sounding cars ever. Just imagine if you could have that sound from a VAG v6 kicking out 250 to 300 hp in a modern 968.