IMS FAILURE

[spyderman]

Sorry to say that for a car of that age, even with a full OPC history, you stand virtually zero chance of getting Porsche to contribute to a fix. There's no harm in asking but its likely to cost you a small fortune just for them to diagnose the problem, let along fix it. Instead I recommend you contact an independent Porsche engine specialist such as [link=http://www.rpmtechnik.co.uk]RPM[/link], [link=http://www.autofarm.co.uk/]Autofarm[/link] or [link=http://www.hartech.org/]Hartech[/link] who can do a strip down and rebuild for considerably less.

 

[Glyn]

The IMS is a well documented fault and hence all the third party vendors that have designed a replacement, indeed even Porsche have designed the IMS out of the new engines. You wouldnt expect that a car with full Porsche service history would be rejected by Porsche when a well known and documented issue occurs - but i suspect they will not entertain a claim or offer assistance - all i see they will do is reccommend you use an OPC to have the engine replaced - and swell their coffers even more. I am not aware of anyone taking an IMS failure to litigation as the costs would exceed the repair and as Porsche could engage the very best of representation the David and Goliath syndrome would in all likelyhood ensure they win the case and the litigator pays all the costs. You are probably better sourcing a replacement engine and taking the hit on the chin. IMS failure is not as common as people believe but if your the one who suffers the loss then i imagine its a nightmare.

 

[cowbridgepete]

I have recently had an IMS failure on a 2003 Boxster S with only 21,000 miles and a full OPC service history. It seems that the IMS failure is due to a recognised design fault but that Porsche are reluctant to accept any responsibilty.

Does anyone have any experience of Porsche making any sort of goodwill gesture to cover financial loss and are there any statistics regarding the number of IMS failures?

After 15 years of very happy Porsche motoring in a 911 and then my Boxster my faith in the design integrity and brand quality has been severely tested!

Any advice or comments would be appreciated.

Peter

 

[Nick_USA]

Sorry to hear about the failure; I've been there and got the t-shirt with an 2004 S. After the engine was dropped from the car and split from the gearbox your could see the mess of the failure ball bearings dropped on the floor for effect. Rather than spend money on an engine rebuild with unknown future prospects we opted for a new, but exchanging the old, engine from Porsche. We did the sums and it was came in about £2K over a probable repair cost from the OPC. Benefit to us was the complete engine comes with a 2 year warranty unlike a repair where only the parts they replace would be covered. Yes we could have gone to an indy but the uncertainty would still be there plus the re-sale value of the car would suffer considerably.

 

[Buddy]

If not under extended warranty they will not pay anything although the OPC may possibly allow some element of good will as in a discount on a new engine but as the car is 9 years old even with such a low mileage it's value is not great and a new engine outright is of an equivalent value to the car if the engine was still good. I take it that this is the same car you started a thread on almost 2 months ago and thought you either traded it with someone or had it repaired.

 

[Geoff_Fields]

Yes we could have gone to an indy but the uncertainty would still be there plus the re-sale value of the car would suffer considerably.

On this rare occasion I have to disagree with Nick. If I was looking to buy an M96 engined Porsche I would far prefer one that has had an Hartech rebuild with their upgrades than another ticking time bomb from Porsche.

 

[rob.kellock]

I think the availability or not of a potential remedy depends upon when you purchased the car, who you purchased it from and whether or not you have ever paid for the extended warranty. When the engine on my 996 let go, I had no remedy as I had bought the car privately from its second owner. One of the reasons Porsche failed to offer any goodwill was the fact that the car had never benefitted from an extended warranty. If you have had the Porsche extended warranty until very recently then goodwill may follow. As far as legal remedies are concerned, the short answer is - it depends. If you bought the car last week from an OPC then clearly you would be entitled to a full repair, if you bought the car privately you probably have no legal remedy. The car has to be fit for purpose and an engine expiry at that mileage is probably not acceptable but, harsh as it may sound, your car is 9 years old and I'm not sure I would want to rush to litigation unless the car was purchased very recently. If you search on here a member with a 996 did successfully take Porsche to court even though his car had done a relatively high mileage when the engine failed but he was the original purchaser and the County Court judgement would not be a binding precedent. IIRC, the mileage was around the 100k mark and the Judge commented that the engine should have lasted longer. I went down the route of an exchange engine from Porsche which comes with a 2 year unlimited mileage guarantee and caused no problems on re-sale; indeed, it was probably viewed as a bonus. My wallet has still not got over it though...

 

[Nick_USA]

ORIGINAL: Geoff997

Yes we could have gone to an indy but the uncertainty would still be there plus the re-sale value of the car would suffer considerably.

On this rare occasion I have to disagree with Nick. If I was looking to buy an M96 engined Porsche I would far prefer one that has had an Hartech rebuild with their upgrades than another ticking time bomb from Porsche.

The new engine came with the latest 2007 uprated bearing and with all the swarf that had run around the engine we wanted peace of mind. The two year warranty on the new engine is also transferable.

 

[cowbridgepete]

Thanks for all your comments & advice. In my case the OPC quoted a figure of approx £14,000 to supply & fit a new engine (although they said they might be able to discount this a bit). They were not keen to rebuild the motor as Porsche would not give a warranty on the rebuild and following an IMS failure it was not their policy to rebuild! As the car was only worth about £10,500 it did not make sense to buy a new engine. An engine from an Indy would be between £2,000 and £5,000 (depending on condition & mileage) plus a further £1,000 to £1,500 for fitting. Once fitted it was likely that the value of the car would suffer. When I did the sums it was almost breakeven between this option and selling the car with the broken engine particularly as I could see the costs escalating (new clutch while engine out etc) so I have taken the hit on the chin and sold the car. It has been an extremely expensive lesson and I wish I had not sold my old 911 carrera! Peter

 

[scaramanga]

Hi Peter, I've just had the quote back from Hartech to complete the engine rebuild. Looking at more than £7.5k+ for the rebuild due to the damage that was done. Then, as you correctly say, best to do the clutch while the engine is out. Am just debating whether to proceed with the rebuild or just cut my losses and sell the car. From what I have read, the rebuilt engines have not failed again, and people like autofarm, hartech etc have been doing this awhile. So if I have the rebuild carried out (which is virtually warranted by hartech), I guess the car would be much more appealing to any buyer (if we sell in the future) as it's had the big weakness addressed. Buying a new engine from Porsche is c.£11-12k, buying a second hand engine risks another failure, so could be a false economy. For anyone that is following this thread, could the failure have been prevented by replacing the IMS bearing ? Just wondering if this is something that everyone should be doing on their 986 / 987.1 / 997.1 engines ?

 

[acer]

[]Hi Peter, Am feelin very sorry for your bad experience and for some others the Opc are maybe ticking boxes and getting their paper work correct and the servicing may be of poor standard,the oil changed would show metal particles of the IMS bearing breaking up which should have diagnosed for you. You are quite correct it is a design fault with the IMS bearing,evidently it is the grease that breaks down in the bearing causing it to break up and go around the engine,this by accounts can be prevented by regular oil changes and the IMS guardian system. I do believe you had a strong case for some compensation with the Opc,but it is difficult to know how the car was used before you purchased it,because of track days or race circuit use and with this they could not held liable for! Porsche do recommend more frequent oil changes if track use,there is also an oil sump upgrade so the oil pick up is constant when cornering! The best route it seems is a replacement engine with for about £2-3k and the new ceramic IMS bearing fitted.

 

[spyderman]

ORIGINAL: acer The best route it seems is a replacement engine with for about £2-3k and the new ceramic IMS bearing fitted.

Bearing replacement alone is > £1k + VAT; a replacement engine will be > £6k, a lot more at an OPC. An OPC won't fit anything other than a Porsche part and not all of them would do that kind of work anyway. Best to talk to a specialist such as RPM Technik, Autofarm or Hartech. See the price list on Autofarm's website http://www.autofarm.co.uk/uploads/IMS_fix_pricelist.pdf

 

[Nick_USA]

If you are going with a replacement (new) engine these come with a 2 year warranty; the fitting of a ceramic bearing may prevent another IMS bearing failure, however it will certainly invalidate the rest of your engine warranty.

 

[hossuk]

I am so sorry to hear that you have suffered from this seemingly all too common and extremely expensive failure. I have recently purchased a 2001 'S' which had 42,000 miles on it when I bought it back in March, of which the first 31,000 miles had been covered by 2004. At this time the IMS, RMS & Clutch were all replaced at an OPC (I have the receipts). This was one of the main reasons I went ahead with the purchase, as I had been lurking on a number of forums and was well aware of this potential catastrophic failure. Even though it has been 8 years since the IMS replacement it has only done 12,500 miles since. I am definitely not going to pay for another IMS replacement now as it just isn't economically justifiable, therefore I am thinking of fitting the IMS Guardian. So I am wondering :- Have any of you have installed it? Do you think it is just a bit of snake oil? Doing some reading there doesn't seem to be any protection for you if you fit it and then have an IMS failure which causes significant engine damage but doesn't trigger the warning. It seems you may be able to recover 150% of the cost of the device which as we all know is a drop in the ocean compared to repairs/replacement. I sort of understand why they do not give any further warranty as the device only gives a warning and there is nothing to stop one continuing to drive. However here is a thought, if you buy a smoke detector and fit it and keep it powered and you are maimed or killed because it didn't function would the manufacturer or reseller be liable? If it could be proved I am sure they would. I know for peace of mind I could purchase a warranty but I have been quoted £900-independent/£1200 OPC per year which again isn't financially viable. Look forward to you thoughts.

 

[spyderman]

IMHO the Guardian is a complete waste of money - get a better bearing fitted instead. Prevention is better than cure.

 

[hossuk]

Thanks for your feedback Spyderman, but did you not mean to say 'Prevention is better than notification'? []

 

[spyderman]

Ha! I suppose I do!

 

[acer]

[8D]Hi, Am in two minds with this guardian,it is cheaper if u fit yourself And it warns if u have metal particles in the engine oil,ie a connection to the oil sump plug then to your dash a warning light,spiderman could be correct. My idea was to fit a magnetic oil drain plug from the states it's quite cheap. Then when u drain the oil u could see if is attracting larger than normal metal filings. My new idea sounds strange but am thinking of changing the oil every 1000miles and putting the old oil in a large 10litres gold fish tank,then will let this oil drain for a month and see if there are metal filings this way as the sediment should drain to the bottom. Am changing my oil filter as well so am doing about 3-4 changes a year,with Mobil1.

 

[spyderman]

ORIGINAL: acer ...putting the old oil in a large 10litres gold fish tank...

Your goldfish are going to be really pissed off. Finding out there's metal in the oil doesn't tell you where the fragments are coming from. At least if you replace the bearing, you can be pretty certain the bearing is no longer an issue.

 

[hossuk]

ORIGINAL: spyderman

ORIGINAL: acer ...putting the old oil in a large 10litres gold fish tank...

Your goldfish are going to be really pissed off. Finding out there's metal in the oil doesn't tell you where the fragments are coming from. At least if you replace the bearing, you can be pretty certain the bearing is no longer an issue.

You are right in saying if you find metal in your oil you don't know where it is coming from, but as soon as you see it it will be hell of an incentive to take a bloody close look and probably change the bearing immediately. And, taking the hit on your wallet will feel a lot less painful when you 'know' that you are saving the engine rather than doing the change when you feel that there may be nothing wrong. I understand this is flawed logic but ones perception does come into it. It also matters how much you are going to lose, if the car is worth £6k-8k , 1.5k - 2k to do the replacement for 'peace of mind' is a lot of beer tokens. Its much different if your car is worth 15k +